This is a corporate subsidy, clear and simple. It says, "CEO's and board members are not satisfied with current profit levels and are having trouble finding affordable private schooling for their children, paying for their yachts, the European villa and 3 or more cars."

As if top management doesn't have enough. It's already a buyers market for employers, and wages are already depressed by the economy and health care costs.

To the make program fair, it should apply equally to any trade or occupation. This should include lawyers, doctors, journalists and economists. Any trade or occupation that already enjoys government protection from competition should be exposed to the H1-B program.

If the program cannot be applied to all industries and occupations because we lack the political will to do so, eliminate the program.

The H-1B visa is an affront to US citizenship as its main purpose is to lower wages here in the US by increasing wage competition.
Here is an example of its effect Starting wage for mid level IT support position in 1998 $55,000 per year, starting wage for senior level IT support positions in 2009 now range between $45,000 and $60,000.
This was noticeable as far back as 2006, not what I would call progress.
Even today with over 14 Million US citizens out of work the Feds still import around 138,000 foreign workers each and every month or 34,500 each week all with work visas and jobs in hand.
What a mess.
Time to re-employ US citizens and abolish the alphabet soup of work visas.

Hi,

I have heard a lot about this computer world article. Let me throw light on the actual H1 worker's life.
We are always treated as sub-contractors or "purchase services". No human firstly likes to be a purchased service but the fact is that the terminology is like that and one has to live with it :)
Firstly there is always a balance of permanent employess, H1 subcontractors and contractors. At least I have always heard from the Senior Managers here in my company that "We have hired purchase services so that whenever we have to reduce workforce, we will start by reducing purchase services". This does not give confidence to me as an employee but this is how it is. Somehow the impression is that H1 ppl are preferred, but that is not the case. Apart from that one Vision Systems example, most other American companies infact DO like to retain the permanent job employees as compared to contractors.
Whenever layoffs happen, first to go are contractors, then H1 sub contractors and then permanent job employees (bcoz contractors get the highest salary per hour, H1 employees already get less salary but have to be laid off before permanent job employees).
Also the fact is that it is easier for a company to hire and fire h1 employees as compared to permanent employees. To acquire permanent employees a company invests too much in training, HR etc and hence does not make business sense to fire them first. H1 workers are subcontractors who come and work and are not actual flag-bearers of the company.
So all in all, I would say that no one is devouring the other. This is the way market behaves during slump and all are affected as humans!
"To prove a point" is not very matured way to approach this.

Michael,

> import around 138,000 foreign workers each and every month or 34,500 each week all with work visas and jobs in hand.

I was under the impression that at most only 85,000 H-1B visas are granted a year, so the figures you quoted surprise me. Please post how you arrived at those figures.

You are all mising the point. H1B is only part of the fraud.Most Indians have incorporated in India or the US and work on corp to corp basis. I palced an add recently and had Indians from all over the world answer it and state that they could and would come to the US and work on a corp to corp basis. No need for H1B sponsorship

H-1 worker, you are wrong. You are not in a position to speak of the hiring decisions of corporations because you are not in the personnel department where these decisions are made. I am. Companies ARE replacing permanent U.S. workers with H-1B temp workers who are rotated out frequently, in favor of fresher and cheaper ones.

You have no knowledge of the workings of the program but for the propoganda being distributed to you by your H-1B bodyshop.

Hi 'Inside Observer'.

I seriously gave you the facts. This IS how purchase services are handled. There is no propaganda. Never in my post did I talk of Indian companies being good, providing cheap labor, temp workers being more intelligent...etc. BECAUSE I know these debatable issues will have no answers on any forum. Hence I am not being fed by any h1-b bodyshop and I gave the most honest opinion :)
Also I am not that senior a person who would actually want to promote propaganda for my parent company. I am just an analyst and developer.
No one likes lay offs. An American does not, an H1 worker does not - because both have been working honestly enough, giving their best all the time. In the end it all comes down to balance of economics when companies take such decisions and that unfortunately can go either way.

The US government needs to investigate the companies hiring the outsourcers and outsourcers. To see if US workers are being displaced. The companies cannot have the best of both worlds that is take taxpayer money and then layoff the taxpayers.

The H1B program needs to be severly curtailed. For over 10 years, since the Great Y2K scare, foreign workers, not just Indians, but significant numbers of Indians, have been tools used to increase short term profits and reduce the bottom line.

And it's not just the H1B,it is the entire third world body shop and there outfits in Chennai, Bangalore and elsewhere. Where ever some one lives a nocturnal existance to deliver a domestic technical resource an US Citizen is getting the shaft.

I would like to see every HIB worker who isn't working their specialty gone, who is here to replace a domestic worker gone. Just go away already...

It's about time. And for the H1B workers who complain for any reason whatsoever...go back to where you came from so US citizens can have their jobs back. Some nerve coming to our "free" country to get and education and take our jobs from us. Come on Obama, you are supposedly "for the little guy." No more political party bashing. You've got the floor now, so DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, and quit playing the blame game.

I have been in the tech sector for almost 20 years. I can say that the landscape where i work has changed dramatically over the last 8 years. Many more hours, few if any pay raises, more work, responsibility , etc has to be taken just to keep up. This never occurred before the company got 1 MORE H1 labor and was able to outsource to the cheapest bidder. Besides us US workers being ripped off, I do pity the foreign workers as they are also being played as chumps. Under H1, you are sponsored by the company, if you don't like it you can go back to where you came from. These folks are essentially indentured servants. The company gets a LOT of free overtime out of them as the do the rest of us thanks to the new "If you don't like it leave" attitude. The worst part is, the great cost savings are not being given back to the customer. The money only goes to improve the profit margin and fatten bonus's for the upper 2% of the company.

H1-b workers in my industry are frequently used instead of Citizens because of an excuse of moving expenses. A lot of H1-B's dont' mind living in corporate apartments; a citizen frequently has families, wants to go home on the weekends, etc.

So the H1-B's are hired because "they are available". The fact is, marital status IS a huge factor in this hiring decision. If you are living out of a suitcase, you get hired. People that want lives and not work 60 hour weeks and bill for 40 don't get hired. H1B's are willing to work for long hours and move every 6 months. So they get hired. I think this is abuse, but it's easily defended by the hiring company "the citizens weren't available".

H1 Worker: I think you're missing the point. At the point of firing, certainly a Corp to Corp will be let go first. However, at the point of *hiring* given a cheap corp to corp (H1B) over a permanent employee (paperwork, medical, etc), the H1B is picked.

Good that the truth on all this is finally getting out. IBM, Oracle and Microsoft lobbied the Bush Admin' long and hard on H1B quotas - because they benefit the most.

Fact is this could all be solved EASILY if H1B visa holders had free right of transfer. They are instead indentured servants to their corporate sponsor. And we thought that had been outlawed 100 years ago.

If H1B workers were free agents in the marketplace - then they would compete on more level terms with US citizens. Instead they are forced to work for less, and worse conditions - hence depressing wages and displacing Americans from jobs.

This was exactly our case. A number of developers through support personnel including SA/BSA's, PM's etc were layed off and "replaced" with several "Indian" workers from Info***. The company could get 2 Info*** workers for the price of one American. This firm brought large numbers of their employees into the States specifically for this position, rented a couple of appartments and put them in our seats. The number of American IT professionals left unemployed was large. The only varience was most of the layed-off American workers were W-2 contract personnel... Should this allow the company issueing the layoff notice the right to do such a thing?

Dear H1 worker,

Foreign workers are not the only ones that are hired corp-to-corp or as temporary contract labor.

I am a native-born US Citizen, working as a contractor, either as a W-2 employee of a "body shop" or corp-to-corp for over 5 years.

In the company I currently contract with, there are H1 visa *employees* and I see US citizens "laid off" and replaced by foreign workers every week.

How many US Citizens are now UNEMPLOYED because an H1-B visa holder has taken his/her place? Way too many!
What is going on these days in the US is really a SHAME. American people unemployed and visa holders employed? How did this happen? Who is allowing this to happen?
Same with offshoring? Is every American aware of the negative impact that all this is making to the US economy? How many US jobs have been already shipped overseas? What's the unemployment rate now in the US specially in IT jobs? High.
We already have enough proof now of what happens when the economy shrinks. What are we waiting to put a full stop to all this nonsense?

H1 Worker,

I have to side with Inside Observer on this one. My company has had 3 rounds of layoffs in the last 3 years. Each of them has resulted in full time employees being replaced by contractors. Granted not all of them have been replaced, but well over 70% have.

And as Gupta Sinjay points out, not all of them are H1-B visa holders. The contracting company (India based) as offices in the US and I assume that is to get around the H1-B visa need.

Either way companies are getting rid of the "American" worker in favor of cheaper foreign labor. The really sad part of that most the foreign workers are newly trained and very unqualified to perform the jobs assigned.

corp-to-corp is the L1 stuff. No need to have sponsorship as the indian branch is a part of the us firm. They can hire in india and just move them here as they are already 'employees' of the parent firm. Not US citizens, but 'employees'. So the firm can tout: "we only have 'permanent employees', not contractors". It still stinks. the only reason for the offshore subsidiary is to hire and then replace us workers.

@H-1 Worker,

How do you explain corporations laying off employees while simultaneously hiring H-1B workers AND begging congress for more?

I give you THOSE facts. I have seen it first hand. Hell, just look at Microsoft...

The H1B program is a giant positive feed back loop for corporations to keep massive profits while wages are driven down. This then pushes more and more American students into other disciplines where their income won't be threatened. As a result, high tech companies reap massive benefits, the Federal Government keeps a large bureaucracy running and competition in the marketplace is kept out. It's a great way to run an industry if you believe in Corporatist Statism. It is a shockingly bad way to treat individual Americans and foreigners alike. We are the meat in the grinder, even though our talents, skills and academic abilities are equal to the other great disciplines. How can these IT companies bleat about skill shortages while at the same time sit on billions in cash?

H1B is increasing the number of jobs where the employer requires a BS degree in computer science. For many jobs like tech support and help desk, an AS degree or certification is all that is required to do the job. It also encourages employers to make requirements like a very specific set of skills that fit the H1B candidate in sham help wanted ads.

These requirements are set up to exclude qualified Americans, allowing the company to hire the H1B worker since a "qualified" American cannot be found. Computer programming is as much a talent as a skill. Good computer programmers can learn a new language in a couple of weeks, since the logical reasoning required is the same across languages.

Companies would rather hire "cheaper" foreign workers than keep the skills of their existing workforce up to date. Another example of short term thinking. Skills like business knowledge and communication are sacrificed for the project budget. It is no wonder that many budgets turn out to be fiction, when the cheaper programmer delivers an inferior product due to commmunication issues.

Interesting observations but let's separate facts from fiction -
1. Why would a kid go and study if he/she can earn same doing a job which doesn't require $$$,$$$.00 of investment in college expenses.
2. I've and have been trying to fill many IT positions and can't find qualified people. Our company tries to avoid the H1B workers and related process - its a big expense in itself.
3. Result - our department and our work has been suffering for many years. I have full details - MILLIONs of dollars of software and MILLIONs of dollars of human labor has gone waste because we didn't hire the right resources to get the software configured and maintained properly.

Bottom line - our country doesn't have QUALIFIED people - example - Oracle DBA - offering 100K - can't find anyone. I'm looking for real DBAs and not pretenders who did a little certification 6 months back.

Here's my question - will I be wrong in asking the management to look for the right resources even if it requires hiring a foreign worker?

The issue is not H1 Worker. If a US company finds a cheaper worker overseas it will relocate to the country of cheaper labor. Why is the american worker paid higher wages. To support student loans, home loans and pay taxes. A H1 worker can get away with all these. One can use 1099 and pay lower taxes by showing more office expense and lower takehome income. A H1 worker can take the risk of not having Health insurance. All these are burdens born by the US citizen. If these are fixed the H1 worker will not be competetive compared to a US citizen. Till the US government fixes Healthcare, Tax loop holes there is no way to prevent a job getting outsourced or taken by a H1 worker.

I acknowledge the pain of the US citizen. Force the government to fix the loopholes. Some of the loopholes are exploited by US citizens also. Today a full time employee is at a disadvantage compared to a contractor due to the tax laws.

There is no political will to prevent this from happening. The middleman is benifitting more than the H1 worker.

We should support laws to protect fundamental labour laws and not worry about VISAS.

H1B is a program created by the govt to support the technology companies and resulted in keeping this companies profitable and ocmpetitive. I am not an H1B worker but it is difficult to see H1b workers take the blame when I see large corporations pocket the savings and then let the H1B workers take the blame. H1B workers are the tool this companies and government is using to scapegoat the issue.

Why have we lost manufacturing edge to China?

Without the skills of the H1B workers, I think we will also lose the IT edge in the world.

Look around and see the contributions made by H1B workers and how it has made the difference.

I believe, we should focus on creating new jobs instead of focusing on few % of jobs of H1B workers.

We live in a internet age and if USA needs to be competitive, it needs to utilize the best skills of the people of the world.

At the same time, I want government to be vigilant in any misuse of this program.

H1B workers probably are spending 60% of their earnings right into US Economy and are paying taxes to US government. I donot see how it can affect the jobs when it is only fraction of overall job population.

donot focus on H1B workers..focus on creating more jobs.

I can definitely address this question, I have and do not see why this Country, states train and there will be jobs for you.
I know or a fact that myself and others have worked in School to land these positions, but I can guarantee you that someone told these employers do not hire those that work within the United States, hire those people who are on H1-B Visa's we owe to them.
There are tons of American workers who trained in this that have been left on the side and cannot land jobs.
I went to job interview with a School District and sure enough there was a H1-B Visa Director of IT there, I knew right there that I was not going to get hired.
Why have these positions or those who train and then there is nothing there.
It has nothing to do with H1-B being treated unfairly, they were suppose to get trained go back to their respective Countries and work. I bet you if the Government was to truly crack down on these people because many are hear illegally, and they can track them by their Social Security Number by flagging it. This i know can be done. This is just the way our Government works,
I just hate that I was dupped into this field and now I cannot even get a tech job, all because of these HI-B visas, Find them round them up and put them out of this Country, Please start with India, Pakistan, Afghanistan. This will certainly help

If there is fraud surrounding the H-1B program, suspend the program until it is cleaned up.

I hate the victim card. However, the company at which I previously worked had a reduction in force and eliminated my position in March '09. Less than 2 weeks later an H-1B employee reports to work into the same department at a lower level position for a smaller salary.

I would be delighted to provide the details to anyone that wants to investigate.

If there is a way to abuse the H1B system, Americans will find a way. Let's not be too hasty about federal government run programs. They are largely bankrupt and/or biased in their application by lobbyists and political contribution. During full employment, the H1B visa program is probably a good thing, but turning off a good thing, even temporarily, is difficult for both governments and for people (who have developed good working relationships). But I really do not know what my company does, and I will not ask for fear of retribution. Suffice it to say, at the professional level, in the last 5 years, my part of my company seems to have hired India, Indian students and graduates at a rate of 4-5 to 1.

In March 09, SAP had an 800 + layoff. One of those who lost his job found his job posted on SAP's open jobs. He questioned his department management about the position and they began to question HR. Later, it was revealed this job (which WAS his job) is open to be filled with someone holding a H1-B. This person had outstanding job reviews and maintained a high utility rate. SAP simply cut him along with others to replace them with cheaper labor.

the core reason for us workers being laid off is because of capitalistic greed. we cannot have it both ways - as a shareholder through our 401Ks, we want unmitigated growth, ever increasing salaries and positive return on investment... yet when the companies lay us off to meet that goal - we pick on the cheaper workers as the cause and cry to who? the government - last I heard it was a representative democracy - how come we are unable to force our representatives to embrace protectionism? OR - why don't we use our shareholder status to vote down growth?
is this not the same reason practically NOTHING of everyday value gets manufactured here? what did we do then? we love shopping walmart right? why don't we quit buying walmart? see where that protectionism gets us?
the only way out is to compete... the attitude shown is throwing in the towel, and complaining to the referee, before the fight even starts. as if the local worker deserves a job by default because of some god given right.

It is a really contentious and tricky issue. As an Indian who has come to the US twenty years ago (through an immigrant visa, not an H1) and became a US citizen 15 years ago, my perspective is that the program had some value when it was originally devised and probably has some value today, but certainly not the value the IT company executives argue it has.

I have seen many people coming through the H1 visa program to the US legitimately and serving the purpose it was intended to. However, of late, it is being misused or exploited by many Indian companies to bring labor at a much cheaper price and thereby unfairly affect the US workers and putting them out of work. I say this very sincerely since it is affecting my own work and my ability to earn a decent living. Often I am forced to compete with workers on H1 visa who are willing or forced to go and work anywhere in the US at the price offered. Some recruiters (even US recruiters) have no hesitation asking ‘Are you willing to relocate?’ for a 3 month assignment 1000 miles away. Apparently, they fail to understand what ‘relocation’ means or have come to re-define it with the flooding of the H1 workers who are willing to ‘relocate’ for 3 month assignments.

Given such scenarios, it is high time this program is totally reviewed for its efficacy and revamped to plug the loopholes that these companies are using to bring labor at cheap prices. This program was designed to allow US employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations where otherwise there is a short supply of resources.

Another thing to note is that many Indian companies bring employees not only on H1 visas but on L1 visas as well – under the pretext they are here to tend to the business needs of the company. Many of these folks are doing the same work as the H1 visa holders and add to the misery of the US workers.

--Paul

"I have been in the tech sector for almost 20 years. I can say that the landscape where i work has changed dramatically over the last 8 years. Many more hours, few if any pay raises, more work, responsibility , etc has to be taken just to keep up. This never occurred before the company got 1 MORE H1 labor and was able to outsource to the cheapest bidder. Besides us US workers being ripped off, I do pity the foreign workers as they are also being played as chumps. Under H1, you are sponsored by the company, if you don't like it you can go back to where you came from. These folks are essentially indentured servants. The company gets a LOT of free overtime out of them as the do the rest of us thanks to the new "If you don't like it leave" attitude. The worst part is, the great cost savings are not being given back to the customer. The money only goes to improve the profit margin and fatten bonus's for the upper 2% of the company."

This post tells it like it is and it is factual and is the truth.
Where I work lots of people loss their status as a full time employee and just got outsourced. Then the outsourcing company keeps them for a year or so and then ships their job overseas to the lowest bidder. Meanwhile the company that they started with looks like the good guy because they didn't outsource the job the contracting company did the outsourcing. What is even better is that the original company owns a portion of the outsourcing company. It is all funny money and basically the money goes to the profit margin and fatten the stock options and bonuses of the top 2% of the company. Meanwhile the worker who actually does a great a job and enjoys what he/she is doing works without a raise and gets the attitude that they are just lucky to have a job.

Great to be American and I am so glad my dad risked his life in WWII for all these greedy people whose only talent is that they can talk in front of people and the board.

I am amazed at how much the citizens are concerned about the H1B fraud and its consequences as opposed to the concern of law enforcement. I have tried providing some information the H1B fraud to the law enforcement, i literally tried all the departments that i could think of or find on Google search but guess what, i never got any reply or call back from them to find out more information. I walked into a couple of offices and all i heard was that we don't deal with it. At this point i am quiet and almost gave up. It took the US government so many years to figure out that H1B fraud is going on and they reacted only when there was lottery system for couple of years and i am very sure they will figure out the fraud i am talking about after a few years and when the fraud really bites the US economy, its citizens and their employment. Its not just the consulting companies that decide on defrauding but also the employees that work for them. There are still employees on H1B that do not give in to the fraud and ultimately suffer the same as US citizens.

I can only hope that the government recognizes this fraud as early as it can and controls and contains this. They should also make sure they deter H1B workers from defrauding or choosing that path just because it is easier and is
more profitable.

I wish i could help but looks like no one is interested.

In the "open market" of this global economy, there are only two options left for American companies:

1 - Hire low cost H1B worker here
2 - Outsource the position to a low cost location

Option 1 will at least add to some spending in the local economy (tax, rent, expenses).

Similar thing happened to the manufacturing industry a decade back. This is how the global market works...

News papers should put info of INS officers info who approved those visas for certain companies they are as corrupt as corporate bosses who mistreat H1 employees.
Corruptuon and deciet runs paralall to American corporate and legal big shots, What a shame!

Interesting debate.

Bottom line:

This is not a problem with the workers, whether US Citizens or H1B, or... It is purely corporate greed. They will displace anyone to save a buck and make their bonuses higher. And yes they do "enslave" foreign workers, since they are not allowed to transfer easily. I have seen many that are very poorly treated.

The H1B program could definitely use some improvement. I agree with "Consultant" that H1B workers should be allowed to work/transfer as free agents without restrictions to any specific company.

Hello..the problem with the H1B program is that it is for an extended period (6yrs)..that sounds almost like a permanent solution to labor shortages.not a temporary one. The H1B Visa should be for 1 year, with the requirement to justify a national need for renewal.

30 years ago I came from Canada on an H1 Visa. It was for 1 year and the company had to justify my presence every year in order to renew my visa. I did get lucky and did manage to obtain a green card. I know what my American friends are thinking. Oh Canadian. Think reciprocity. For every Canadian in the US there is at least one American in Canada if not more. You can't say that for India or China.

Anyway I prsonally do not think you need scores of advanced degrees for most of the IT work. Most IT work is unidimensional, focussed on a narrow set of products. There is no need for MS in CS; a 2 year degree is sufficient.

As far as hiring H1Bs from overseas, I have found that most are either lacking language skills or effective work habits.

There would not be a need for any large number of H1B's if the US educational and government programs were modified to support the development of IT specialists as well as mathematicians and scientists who are US citizens. The government should fully and directly subsidize their education and living expenses.

The program should no focus on "A" students. This is a fallacy. In my highschool class I know of many "B" students who were able receive advanced degrees in a specific skill whereas they could not master mandatory subjects such as history, literature or languages. (left side vs right side stuff).

In summary, the H1B program benefits only the "sponsors", not the industry, not the US economy, not the American people and rarely the H1B imports. The US should develop its own talent pool, not import it. The US is not a third world country.

Talking about H1 program is just part of the problem. All the companies want MORE and MORE and MORE .... profits ALL THE TIME. To achieve the quarterly and all other (you name it) targets, the Harvards and other great people from Business schools and Law schools can come up with these ideas of GLOBAL economy(WTO etc). Say, American Kellogs corn flakes can be sold in a very poor nation where a poor farmer and his/her family may be living on making and selling the same. Walmart going into a developing nation and eliminating all the small retail stores (bread winners for a small time store owner). It's all about Money for the companies and survival for the common man(a developer/tech worker or any worker for that matter)

Cynthia Bartle has asked: Who is allowing this to happen?

Isn't it obvious? Americans are doing this. Americans within American companies who make decisions about personnel, budgets and with Profit & Loss responsibility are the ones making these decisions. So, it is ourselves doing this to ourselves.

Like lowered std of living said "The worst part is, the great cost savings are not being given back to the customer. The money only goes to improve the profit margin and fatten bonus's for the upper 2% of the company" the existing employees have to work long hours and then the mgmt take it or leave it attitude to us citizens. This only started after the outsourcing circus started a few years ago.

In response to the H1B person...H1B are also replacing American Temps, making your point moot

Also, this is too little too late. The govt has been participating and encouraging this practice. People dont seem to understand that the govt supports corporations, not people. They don't bailout small companies, only big ones. Look at the car companies. They've been bankrupt before, yet they still pump money into them while more deserving companies go under, sometimes because the govt is supporting the bigger companies.

Politicians take money from big corps to pass laws helping them to expand H1b programs, as in the past.

Its only because the country is in dire straights and unemployment is so high that they are giving mouth service to it.

Here is another way to look at it. The govt is considering letting a lot more people in so they can buy houses here. What about the homeless? govt deals with larger chunks of economy. They have NO INTEREST in how American citizens are doing...only corps.

H1 Worker may be quoting his company source accurately but H-1B employees are protected by law that they cannot be discriminated against, i.e. if layoffs occur, they cannot be unfairly targeted. If a company lays H-1B workers off and it is obvious that regular employees are untouched, the company can be brought up on charges for violating employment law. No offense to H-1B workers but they should not be protected the same as regular employees. They should be treated fairly but no different than outsourced or temporary employees.

I would expect an India-based company, a US-based company, a Japanese-based company, etc to consider their nation first when it comes to economic decisions out of both loyalty and long vision planning. I would respect the companies that consider their home nation's citizens first.

Let's take globalist logic as far as it goes. The population of India alone is around 1.2 billion, and there are plenty of other nations whose citizens would love to come take and jobs here or else have our work shipped over to them. The US population is only around 300 million. Since they don't come burdened with our mortgages, rents, student loans, and other bills, the vast majority of foreign workers would be delighted to take a significantly lower wage than what we need to live comfortably here. Theoretically, every single American worker, present and future, could be replaced with a willing foreign worker. Think how much money that would save. Not just the tech workers. The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. The cop, the handyman, the lawn guy, the teacher, the plumber. They have blue collar workers too. What if every single one of us got our walking papers? What would America be like then? For us? Welfare benefits have a tight lifetime cap. Savings? Home equity? What would you live on if every single time you thought of a plan to earn, a foreigner was right there, johnny-on-the-spot, to take your place? In the tech field, in some areas, this is already happening. Better get active and do something about this, unless you trust the third world to show restraint and stop wanting our jobs.

Me and my IT colleagues lost our programming jobs when our company imported programmers and made the Americans train them in order to receive severance. The company posted LCA sheets as required by law, and thus, we learned that the visiting programmers are earning about half of their American counterparts. Whenever I contact my elected representatives, the Dept. of Labor and the Dept. of Commerce about this, their shoddy excuse is that Americans aren't educated enough or prepared enough or smart enough to do high tech. But I'm not surprised. That's what the corporations and the media tell them.

Myths:
1) These are Temporary (Guest) Worker Visas and NOT IMMIGRANT VISAS
2) They are paid the same wage as Americans, they are paid about 12,000 or more less
than their American counterparts
3) They are just average programmers and in fact some of them are incompetent
4) There is no labor shortage with millions of highly skilled Americans and Permanent Residents unemployed.
Hire local it's the American thing to do.

Greedy Companies use them to replace Americans with:

1) Cheap Foreign workers - These companies don't want to pay the prevailing wage.
2) Younger Foreign Workers - Those over 35 are discriminated because of their age.

Hire Americans and Permanent Residents. Help America.
Yet another sellout of the American worker, just so a few executives can make a few more million.

Hiring or continuing to employ an H1B worker (or any other VISA) in the US in our current time of crisis is un-American.

Companies need to retain the best talent. If that talent is an H1-B worker, then so be it.

If workers for same job cost the company the same dollars there would not be an issue.
I am surprised the unions have not gotten a foothold in this arena.
Maybe it's time to unionize

Just one comment...

American workers or citizens usually (not all) charge more then H1B. have lots of restrictions and keep reminding their "Legal Rights" to employer. they Have to have Vacation every year else their wife will leave them. Most(not all) love to do only 9-5 job and when it comes to over time.. they remember 1.5 times rule very well.....

with H1's .. this is not an issue .. they work hard not hardly....
they pay full tax to uncle Sam including Social Security which they will never get back unlike US Citizen....

Have you every thing why foreign labour is cheap.. they live in same city as US resident's are .. but can live in less money then "American" workers...

i would say 80% H1B are in IT .. and in todays internet world if Govt stop H1-B then it is easy for those company to switch this position offshore where same individual is working from lets say India or China and paying tax that govt...i may be wrong with % but point is it is benefit for govt to have resource working in states rather then loosing tax money...

Day US citizen start working on lower wages and keep there ego aside that we are most powerful in world and we work on our conditions ... H1's will be our of job.. till then keep this discussion going because there is not resolution...
thanks

If the system is broken, rather than prosecuting the Americans who perpetrate the greed and the exploitation, blame the foreigners. This is brilliant, and I am glad this is online for the world to read and see.

For the IT companies, whatever has been said might be true, I don't know, I am not in that field.

In many fields of engineering and research, there is a huge hiring gap to fill the positions left by the retiring baby-boomers. Over 70% of our engineering and science international students (I'm talking about Masters and PhDs with VERY specific and highest level knowledge, not IT Admins, more like the top level Security Researchers) are leaving this country to return to their home countries (India, China etc.) with plenty of opportunities, while the positions within the States are left with a small pool of grads to choose from. These are our brains, and you know, if the US doesn't want to innovate, India, China and Brazil will. They have the skills, people and the brains to pull it off now.

Take a look at BYD. Take a look at HuaWei (which is almost as big as Cisco now). These companies didn't even exist 20 years ago. If we keep losing the brainpower to Asia, or if we keep this short-sighted notion that the H1B needs to be "curtailed", instead of making it more fair and easy for the truly needed, we are not going to compete in the next iteration of economy.

You know, if you all keep thinking this way, soon you would HOPE that China has an H1B program for you.

The unemployment numbers are not going to be correct, because there are people who left the field due to the nastiness of the field and others who left temporarily to raise small children. Unemployment only goes back 18 months. It does not include career changes and people who were forced to take a pay cut.

This problem of hiring NON-US citizens with H1-B visas is just as much of a problem as outsourcing IT or other "help desk" type jobs to parts unknown in India, the Philippines, China, etc. And then everyone wonders why there is so much unemployment in this country...and why so many hard working, TAX PAYING U.S. citizens are losing their homes to forclosure. The answer is right in front of everyone's noses: STOP OUTSOURCING LABOR TO OTHER COUNTRIES AND STOP HIRING NON US CITIZENS FOR JOBS HERE IN THE U.S. Just try to get a job in Japan as a non-resident and you will find that you stand a snowball's chance in hell!
but not so in the United States where "big business" feels compelled to push it's own citizens out the door and offers preferential treatment to workers for other lands. Once again,
the problem lies in the U.S. government's refusal to properly regulate non-resident employment and outsourcing. STOP OUTSOURCING LABOR TO OTHER COUNTRIES AND STOP HIRING NON US CITIZENS FOR JOBS HERE IN THE U.S. and we might stand a chance of surviving this economic downturn. Just my .02!

The problem in all debates is they never address the issue but rant on the obvious. Lets discuss the un obvious. Why do we have an HB1 visa program?

It was a way to drain the intellectuals of other countries to keep american strong. Sort of a modern day imperialism. Instead of taking over a country we can drain them of specialized labor which slows down their potential growth or competiveness.

Every college student struggling to make ends meet has seen this in action. Foreign students get college work study while some Americans who need it do not. Why, to make sure the students stay in America never helping their own countries prosper.

It is time to decide what being an American citizen means. As of now there is no distinction between Citizen , resident alien, HB1 VISA etc.. except maybe voting or obtaining various government jobs. I thought being a US citizen meant more.

Now we have foreign offices where labor is different not cheaper. Labor cost are based on standard of living and since every industrialize country is at a different stage of industrialism, standards of living is different.

That is the same reason why we have duties on products. However we no longer are a mfg society but a service society so we need to equalize the global labor markets with duties. If not we will become a third world nation (rich and poor).

Robert Miller

As mentioned previously, the H1 workers are destroying the standard of living for Americans. Companies place preference on these H1 workers to cut expenses.

After being downsized from a corporate IT position, I landed a "temp" position in Supply Chain. I put "temp" in quotes, because many of the "temps" have remained in their positions for 5+ years - all hired under the "temp-to-hire" guise.
That company made excessive use of temps and H1 workers. Roughly 25% of the depsrtment (200 employees) consisted of temporary/contract/intern workers.

In the IT department, 95% of those employed were H1 workers from India! Why? The Indian worker received a salary of $17K-$18K yearly - but stayed only 6 months before being rotated out (back to India) and replaced by another Indian worker.
These workers lived together, frequently 5-6 or more in 1-bedroom rentals, as that's all they could afford (NYC Metro area).

Back to the 6-Month rotation of Indian IT H1 workers... That caused SERIOUS problems. Most of these Indian IT people were inexperienced. Worse, they would come in midway through a project, and by the time they got up to speed, it was time for them to go back to India.
Just demonstrates the incompetence of the senior executive bean counters. Sure, the H1 workers cost less that American workers (1/5 the salary, no benefits, etc), but projects would run on forever, and when completed, they were usually very unsatisfactory. How is that saving money over the long term??

Is there a need for H1 workers? Sometimes yes, if a certain skill is unavailable. However, US companies are abusing the process to cut expenses and lower the standard of living for Americans.

As mentioned previously, the H1 workers are destroying the standard of living for Americans. Companies place preference on these H1 workers to cut expenses.

After being downsized from a corporate IT position, I landed a "temp" position in Supply Chain. I put "temp" in quotes, because many of the "temps" have remained in their positions for 5+ years - all hired under the "temp-to-hire" guise.
That company made excessive use of temps and H1 workers. Roughly 25% of the depsrtment (200 employees) consisted of temporary/contract/intern workers.

In the IT department, 95% of those employed were H1 workers from India! Why? The Indian worker received a salary of $17K-$18K yearly - but stayed only 6 months before being rotated out (back to India) and replaced by another Indian worker.
These workers lived together, frequently 5-6 or more in 1-bedroom rentals, as that's all they could afford (NYC Metro area).

Back to the 6-Month rotation of Indian IT H1 workers... That caused SERIOUS problems. Most of these Indian IT people were inexperienced. Worse, they would come in midway through a project, and by the time they got up to speed, it was time for them to go back to India.
Just demonstrates the incompetence of the senior executive bean counters. Sure, the H1 workers cost less that American workers (1/5 the salary, no benefits, etc), but projects would run on forever, and when completed, they were usually very unsatisfactory. How is that saving money over the long term??

Is there a need for H1 workers? Sometimes yes, if a certain skill is unavailable. However, US companies are abusing the process to cut expenses and lower the standard of living for Americans.

All this bitterness and recrimination is based on the premise that protectionism is productive rather than destructive in free market economies. Wealth is not a zero-sum scenario. "Replaced" or "gotten rid of" U.S. citizen workers don't simply languish on the sidelines. They compete in other arenas, they find other jobs. If there aren't any in existing companies, they make new companies. They create new wealth. I know because that's what I did. America's economy can afford to employ highly skilled and qualified economic refugees from around the world because it was built on these principles. The current neo-Keynsian madness sweeping the federal gov't is responsible for the displaced workforce, not the competitive practices of American corporations.

Lots of valid points in this dicussion. h1b workers are employed by these organizations because it benefits them. When it comes to layoffs they are the first to go, and if they cannot get a job in x no of days they have to leave the country. !! But the one thing i have never understood is why should the H1b worker pay social security tax? If an h1b worker stays in the country for few years,, he pays so some other person can retire?:-)

Oh well..the endless debate about the H1B's. As someone who is affected by the outsourcing/hired contracts, I am definitely bummed. However, by taking a step back, I want to quickly cite these points that we should not forget..

a) US is a land of immigrants. Perhaps my forefathers ate up someone's else's job/land when they came here. So we do not have the moral right to preach (until preached by a native Indian :)).

b) America chose to be 200% capitalist country. So do not expect a touch of socialisim here (like laws of working 35 hrs as in Europe). Capitalist dynamics are driven by profits and enterpreneurship. So if we do not produce more with the same resource whereas someone else can, we shall be left behind.

If we drive for globalization of economy, these are some of the issues we shall face.

Now we can take this as a challenge and learn to work more efficient, leaner and smarter (like the Japanese did) or sit on our fat asses and cry about fairness and subsidies from govt with our brains going down the sinkhole. A good example is our auto industry compared with the Japanese or for that matter even South Koreans (Kia and Hyundai).

At the end of the day...the decision is ours to make.

Although there are many complaints about US IT unemployment, from an employer's perspective, I would love to employ more US workers but they never apply for the jobs we advertise. These are for roles as programmers, helpdesk or engineers.

We are a small company but whenever we have run adds we seem to get half of India applying and then the rest are a mix of green cards and H1Bs from other companies. Our first screening question "Can you communicate clearly in English" seems to clear out over 80% straight away.

Our other problem is the varying standard of education from US colleges. I recently interviewed an applicant with two Bachelors degrees in computer science who couldn't tell me what Microsoft Access did. Another who was half way through a course as a DBA who couldn't tell me what a relational database was. The overseas applicants we see seem to have better education but their poor English skills and heavy accents mean that they are mainly for back-office jobs only.

It seems that one of the problems is that the US IT workers seem to be fairly rigid in the jobs that they will take whereas the green card and H1B are more flexible. I don't know why everyone is complaining so much about these people when they are taking jobs you don't want anyway.

And then reality sets in. IBM is, in fact, getting rid of as many "IBM Regular" staff as they can and retaining the "Contractor's". Many centers are being "Consolidated" to save money normally to centers in India or the Czech Republic where the labour costs are a lot lower.

I am not maligning the workers from these locations. Many of them are completely qualified. I also know that for many the only qualification for an IT Job is that they be fluent in English or whatever language is required. They will be trained on the job for the lower end IT work and a few specialists will handle the harder tasks and Customer Service is a memory.

From a business standpoint it makes a lot of sense. Contractors don't get benefits, they don't get vacation time (though legally at least in some countries must be paid for it) and can be let go or hired on a whim. Regular staff are expensive, they get benefits and vacation time disproportionate to the contractors reimbursement and are paid more per person than contractors directly (the companies that contract the contractors have to take their cut of course so a contractor normally gets less).

IBM certainly isn't the only company seeking to maxize it's profit and the customers also are involved. If you are told that person A will cost $500 and person B will cost $100 to do what you've been told is the same job in the same time to the same Service Level Agreement of course you will choose the lower cost solution to try and reduce your costs.

Again, and then reality sets in.

"What is going on these days in the US is really a SHAME. American people unemployed and visa holders employed? How did this happen? Who is allowing this to happen?"

Glad you asked this question. We are to blame as we sit and let our criminal GOV do this to us. We really have no say in the important things in life; like who should be able to work in our country. It should not matter if there are qualified Americans or not as we are not stupid and can be trained or the company is probably lying about this in the first place. We need to fight our GOV as they are all talk and the biggest liars the world has ever seen. The GOV is owned by the Corps and they run our GOV. These criminal will only understand one things as they have proven as they themselves start wars in other countries and then our GIs come back to no jobs. Most Americans don;t want to beleive we have criminals in charge but look around and don't listen to the lies; it has become obvious.

I am not an H1B worker but a full fledged Naturalized American of Indian Origin. Much as I love my birth country, I sincerely want my adopted country USA to prosper and help my birth country to develop and improve. My father late Dr P. Nilakantan was a scientist trained by USA (CAL-TECH) and went to India when it got independence in 1947 to impart training to hundreds of Aeronautical Engineers and Scientists. He was essentially US export to India to develop India! So training Indians and other nationals is not a bad idea in the long run.
Please let this issue not cause hatred of my fellow Indians here in the USA. I heard that a lot of Indian students are being bashed and abused by the local people in Australia. It is deplorable.
Let us work this issue out together and make sure that companies here and in India that want to source its skilled people obey US laws or else face the music if they break them.
It starts with setting a goal for employing all affected US citizens. then finding out what the real problem is . Next step is stating a criteria or set of criteria for evaluating this problem. We then Analise the problem
and come out with good alternatives. We finally chose the best alternative to evolve a plan of action.
At the very end, we set about placing the plan to action in a timely manner and review the results vis-a-vis our objectives.

Yes I would also agree to open all professions like lawyers, doctors, scientists etc to outsourcing if really it is going to benefit all of us US cit zens in the long run.
We are paying too much for legal services and health care.
I personally am seriously under employed still stuck in manufacturing and in logistics have struggled to get a job as a programmer since 1994. I of course did not fudge my resume with training and skill I do not have since I do not want to break the values instilled in be by my beloved parents. I have two valid degrees both from top schools in India all targeted to mechanical engineering to work in management in the manufacturing sector and and a bunch of recognized certificates from US Schools for the special training I spent time and money to obtain in transitioning into understanding computers, networking and computer programming.I am now with great distress and effort due to my health situation learning another computer language to try and get a decent job at the ripe age of 61.
My fellow senior citizens do not give up. If you trust God, I assure you that you will see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Nothing is easy and by outsourcing decent jobs without valid reason the way it is described by my fellow audience.is driving people to mental illness and even in some cases suicide.

Families are splitting . People are losing homes. Hopelessness can even drive people to alcoholism and drugs. Corporate America please wake up. Its like as if Nero ( US Corporations and employers) fiddling while Rome ( we the unemployed and under employed) is burning.
On this serious note , let me appeal to you all to treat this subject as important.

Lets keep the Fraud issue aside for a minute and just talk about the H1-B program.

Every country will try to export what they have in abundance. America exports technology and India exports talented labor. American politicians felt the need for importing the talent pool and thats the reason the H1B program was started. As the need subsides the program will be amended or curtailed.

Way before H1-B program was introduced, India had allowed American companies to do business for e.g. Coke, Colgate Palmolive, IBM, Enron,Union Carbide, GE thrived in India in 70s and 80s. Many Indian companies and government bodies regularly import millions of dollars worth of American machinery, consulting services and other goods every year. Reason: Producing goods from these fine imported machinery, consulting brings the overall cost down. So, it is beneficial to importing Indian companies' bottom line.

Because my father's textile mill in Mumbai, imported made-in-America machinery, there was a layoff and about 500 skilled/unskilled workers lost their jobs in 90s. Textile is just one sector but imported machinery had caused a job loss in every sector. I know many clerical jobs were lost because IBM computers and systems were introduced in many companies. So, should India have stopped importing American machinery, as it makes Indians lose there jobs? These American companies have paid taxes in America and in turn have helped Americans.

Now there is no debate that fraud should be stopped anywhere it may exist. But where fraudulent practices do not exist?

American government, people should do everything to stop H1B fraud because it undermines the main reason for the program.

But, similarly, Indian government,people should do everything to stop corrupt practices used by foreign companies to introduce their products, services in Indian government sector.

How many H1bs does it take to complete a US citizen's work. It is your guess: 1,2,3.... There is no cost savings, this is merely a way of pleasing wall street and getting the value of senior management stock options up. That is all it is. Hope the Obama government does what it is supposed to that is end this oursourcing nonsense and americans get the real deal that is their jobs.

We Americans need to stop playing victim and start dealing with the fact that the world is changing rapidly. We either get with the program or get left behind as we sit around whining about what we are entitled to.

I've been on both sides of the hiring desk and I've only ever had problems trying to hire people. The companies that I've worked for have never considered moving my role or replacing me with some clueless low cost foreigner though I am more expensive than my peers. That's mostly because I am good at what I do but also because I'm not a cry baby when things get tough; I focus on getting things done first then talk to my manager about compensation. That's why I make 30% above market average in my field.

That said, you guys really to get a clue. If were TRULY concerned about the loss of US jobs, get past the politicians' and cry babies' scapegoat, aka. H1-B. Look into how many jobs have been shipped overseas by American companies in IT, manufacturing, support, R&D, even those darn telemarketers. Once you get your nose in there, H1B will look like child's play.

The only real solution is to TOTALLY eliminate the program NOW and send them ALL back! The H1-B is a legalized method of eliminating jobs for US citizens and bringing in those who willing work for a lot less money. And the citizens who's jobs are eliminated find it hard to qualify to continue in their field without the benefit of training the company would have paid for. So that makes it easier for a company to claim they can't find qualified people.

This is effectively a legalized version of all the illegals from Mexico, China, etc. who take jobs away from US citizens at a reduced cost to employers.

And if we are going to continue with programs to stem the flow of illegals, DO THE SAME with H1-B.

And while we are at it, STOP big money corporations from bribing politicians who bend over backwards to please those big spenders.

Binal,

The figure of 138,000 is readily available from numbersusa.com
This number includes all work visas H-1B and L1 etc.
(Note: L1 visas are essentially unlimited)
This has been going on for years and years, under the radar, and now we have at least 14 million unemployed Americans but it still continues to this day.
But my congress people seem to think it’s all good.

I suspected this exactly. I just finished a contract with a company testing their website which was in development over the past year. The company I was working for re-orged late last year, and hired a CTO who is from India. Senior people were let go. American contract developers were let go. A major portion of the testing was sent off shore, and the developers that were let go were replaced by H1Bs from India.

I got notice that my contract was ending about a week before hand. The H1Bs in my department were retained. Looking for a new contract, the rates are half of what they were a year ago. Just this morning I got offered a rate of 22.00/hr. That's less than what I was making more than 10 years ago when I first started in this industry.

The H-1B visa was always a fraud, its only purpose is to lower US wages and displace US workers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

This link will shock you.

Individual companies may create strategies to lower costs through hiring H1-Bs for different reasons, to artificially make their companies look better on paper or to lower expenses so that they can more competitively price their products against other companies in their industries. Those companies may or may not be breaking any laws. They may or may not be individually changing the overall unemployment situation that much. The effects of their actions, however, can drastically change employment of US citizens.

If a company succeeds in looking better on paper in the short-term by lowering expenses without lowering headcount, and is able to get more investors to help it grow; its competitors will have to either follow suit or they will need to reduce their work-force and either remedy leads to citizens being replaced. Each market can justify a certain number of workers. If one company can justify more, their competitors will justify less. Realize that this may not lead to greater price efficiency; just short-term gains in the ability to garner capital and long-term gains in putting US citizens out of work.

If a company succeeds in lowering cost of operations due to its move toward cheaper labor; it will have an advantage in a free marketplace. This means that it will need more workers and its hiring methods will prevail as the standard for other companies in that market. This again forces competitors to either change their hiring habits or reduce their workforce.

In a world economy function this could be a free market in motion; acting to re-distribute wealth to create global economic balance. That is if the nations of the world believed in a free market system...

If an elite group, global in economic capability, wanted to protect and grow their upper-class, elite status, to semi-gods or royalty of sort, it would be in their best interest to lower the average income of US citizens to levels found in 3rd world countries where it is much easier to uphold the class system hierarchy. History is quite clear on this.

Could be just more examples of how our Financial Industry has recently exploited every opportunity granted under the guise of "Laissez-faire" to make money for itself at any expense to society as a whole.

Could be both. H1-B and off-shore outsourcing are both part of the same issue. The US government must intervene to end the loss of jobs available for US citizens. This means that the effects of the last administration must be reversed. Foreign entities and multi-national corporations should not be able to purchase the largest banks, shipping companies, and other strategic corporations in the US. Financial organizations should not be able to profit on short-term gains when everyone loses long-term. The elite rich should not be able to hide their assets overseas or in private corporations ranking as large as the F50 public corporations. A few, mostly not US citizens, have been gaining at the expense of the US society on the whole.

Most comments here are understandably from the US citizen's pt of view.

However, the life of an H1 (from India), is full of deceptions by the employer, system (the "visa bulletin", retrogression) etc.

Basically the system is built to screw the Indian H1 worker. Since he gets screwed, some collateral damage (but somewhat exaggerated, as quality and desirability of US employees is higher, IMO and experience) happens to the US worker as well.

I have a mixed bags of feeling reading the comments from both sides. Like anything else, fraud can never be completely prevented no matter what we are talking about. Cars kill people, should we get rid of cars? Alcohol causes problems a lot times, should we ban alcohol beverages completely? I have gone through the steps from F1 to H1B, to green card, and to citizenship. I think that my case has always been solid. At the time I was on H1B, there was a talent shortage in this country and I was getting phone calls from head hunters at least once a week. Now time is different, maybe we can tie the number of H1Bs to the unemployment rate. I think that we are the smartest country in the world and we should be able to figure out a way to benefit this country the most. The whole world is called the village earth now, and everything is boiled down to who/which company/country is the most competent. H1B is a tool, just like cars, and lets use is to our advantage not disadvantage.

Wow. I made it this far reading comments
Have to leave a smiley :-)

H1-B workers are preferred because they are more intelligent, & hardworking than their American counterparts. An American will not take a pay cut and put in more hours as needed but H1-Bs do. Face it, without H1-B talent, this country would be in the drain.

Ironically, the 40-some years old former H1-B visa IT workers are often time laid off in favor of newly minted ones! How is that for poetic justice.

Labor abuse is as American as the rail roads and cotton picking slaves. I find it astounding that in a so-called democracy a governtment can get away with such labor policies.

Please do turn this into a Republican vs. Democractic debate. Both Clinton and Bush tripled the number of H1-B visas as a favor for the IT & Wall Street oligarchs who financed their corrupt campaigns.

I gave my point of view earlier. After that I read the other 67 that had been posted. More than I expected appear to get it. We are dealing with the elements of greed that has torn our economy apart. I could feel the emotion in Cynthia Bartle's blog. Other opinions are from foreign workers fearing that their way of life might be suddenly changed... like the lives of their US citizen counterparts. I don't blame them but we US citizens do need to decide if we are willing to accept the consequences of not protecting US jobs before it is too late.

The blog by "peter" bothers me because he says he isn't H1B but his use of the English language in his first paragraph shows me that English is not his first language. His use of "this" verses "these" twice and a few other language mistakes make it obvious that he is misleading readers by stating what he is not but not what he is. Corp to Corp and H1-B identity, certification, and competency fraud is 80% according to one government study I read. I have personally seen many incompetent workers holding positions as Java, VB or .NET programmers hiding their lack of skills behind language barriers. Often others of their nationality provide cover for their incompetency while their employer listens to excuses for project delays and failures. Point them out and you are a bigot. Eliminating the fraud upfront would be a great start.

"peter" said to focus on increasing the number of jobs. That is merely rhetoric and a cop-out to the problem at hand. He also mentioned the loss of manufacturing to China. Perhaps "peter" sees that transition from a different perspective.

We lost manufacturing jobs to China and other countries because US companies used the investments made by US citizens, often their own employees, to build cutting-edge plants in those countries. We then hired local laborers, trained them, and even trained managers to run the plants. At some point the company has to cut back and sells the plant or the government of the hosting country decides it would be strategic to their economy to pay a premium to buy the plant and become a player in that industry. This is how we lost our edge to China in manufacturing. Unregulated corporate greed feeding on short-term gains put our knowledge and experience directly in the hands of would-be competitors. How is outsourcing a business function different? Couple H1-B worker experience with an off-shore outsourcing industry and we have essentially given cutting edge, US-born innovation and best practice methods to a competitive foreign workforce.

Now I sound greedy. Yeah, I want the best for my sons. I am an American. Why shouldn't I protect our standard of living so that my children and grandchildren may enjoy the lifestyle I grew up with? How can we just give their future away?

I am a US citizen, non-Indian, that works in the pharmaceutical industry. We have at least 25-30% H1B employers in the US and they have ecently posted additional applications for more H1B applications for my department in addition to hring using headhunters and internet recruiting. The postings list the current position, prevailing wage, and an base wage, which is $12K higher than the prevailing wage for the position. About 2 years ago they were listing a base wage more than 20k higher than the base wage.

I have more experience and qualificatons 2 years ago and now than what is being sought in the postings, yet I was told I do not qualify for the position ( a smal promotion for me, a basic title change) and the prevailing wage listed is several thousand higher than what I am paid, yet alone what they post they are offering for the H1B candidates

When I complained to our department head and my manager 2 years ago, I was told I didn't qualify for the position and there were better qualified individuals to fill the position but they couldn't find qualified talent here in the US, which is why the H1B applications were made to bring in people from India. Additionally, I was told no one gets paid those high wages listed on the H1B applications, and I was laughed at when I asked why if I had more responsibilities and worked harder than what was required and fulfilled the requirements sought I couldn't get paid the salaries listed.

Everyone in our company gets paid lower wages than the local market wages since my company uses the so-called national average, which is thousands lower and isn;t even close to the high cost of living in this area And I don;t know how they can claim there is no talent that qualifies- 50% of our industry's labor force in the state is unemployed, with at least 3,000 people being laid of in the last 12 months. I am sure 6 out of 3,000 wold have qualified.

The sad part is, my company being India based, was the only company at the time to give me a jo and a chance once I graduated I sent out over 25 resumes to companies and every US company said no for some excuse- no enough experience, not enough training, too much education, not enough education, filled the position before the posting closed, hired inside the company instead, etc.

Of course they're going to screw you. They want the H1s to come at a lower rate and will tell them anything just to get them in the door.

As far as H1s being treated like a service, it is mostly. You come in as a contractor or contracted service worker and get treated that way.

Contractors should be short-term employees. If layoffs come, they should go first. That's not always the case, but it should be and anyone who complains that they are treated poorly as a contractor, too bad.

If contracting as an H1 doesn't float your boat, move here, we'd love to have you, become a citizen, get a full-time job.

What next?

1. Will we ask to return some thousands of jobs that have been outsourced to China in manufacturing year after year? Why no one asks about that? Just because a manufacturing worker who has lost his job does not know the internet well to put in random thoughts on the internet? Why do we not have enough guts to ask our government about China?

2. Will we stop allowing people from Mexico, Somalia, Kenya, Latin America, Korea, Vietnam etc from coming to USA and taking away our jobs...landscapists, IT, cleaners all lesser paid jobs? As far as I know these are the guys who do not live on same standard as Americans and not pay their taxes fully?

I have worked with H1 workers all my life. Most of these guys work hard, they our sharp, they pay their taxes and stay away from controversies. Let us acknowledge that and also that they have given US economy a lot and still are!

Before laying off an employee, I think the companies should put in front the prospect of not losing the job but getting lesser salary and vacations. I mean economy is down and hence this is how it is. If we do not say yes, they will hire an H1. But we dont do that do we?

If we are having some work done in our house and are looking for contractors...don't we look for the one that is cheaper but has good quality? Yes we do! So we need to start thinking of giving H1 users competition by reducing our salary, cutting on vacations and still being motivated to work hard. The solution is not to hurt the already down economy by taking rash n emotional decisions like stopping the H1 program.

Why can't we outsource the CXOs if they want to save the company money???

US Employer, frankly I don't believe most of what you have to say, so I'll give you this opportunity to put some meat into your claims. Where do you run your employment adds? In the US as well as in India?

Do these people who don't know what Access and a Relational Database are normal or outliers?

If you think US workers are rigid in the jobs they will take, you haven't been interviewing in the last few months.

People are hurting.

How many of us look for the "Made In The USA" label and pay higher price when we buy at our Local Walmart?

How many of us stood up when Manufacturing Jobs were being lost to foreign competition? Businesses will lean towards low cost options.

How many of us stand up to the health care industry that is sucking huge portion of our disposable income?

Do we believe that market forces WORK?

How many of us strongly opposed wasting trillions of $s fighting the wrong war?

How many of us do background checks on the people who do our landscaping or other odds and ends construction jobs?

How many of us would complain if the H1B visas holders were mostly white or Europeans who looks like us?

How many of us care about the ruthless exploitation of people around the globe that results from our purchasing choices (diamonds, etc.)?

How many of us care about our civic duties and do research before we vote?

How many of us TRULY oppose government corruption, fraud and waste that costs us a lot more?

How many of us took advantage of this same system we are complaining about now when the going was good?

How many of us really think that if this program is suspended, businesses will not divert R & D completely to the low cost destinations?

That said, we need to seriously balance jobs and cost efficiencies.

Just holding the mirror.

Do the things you have control over.. VOTE, Educate yourself and work hard.

There are no easy answers but a good place to start is at home. Buy American and demand good service.

Next time you purchase stocks look at the BBB reports not just the financials.

If you continue to shop at walmart and other like companies then you are part of the problem.

The nice and bad thing about IT is you need to keep your skills current and keep learning new ones all the time - else you will be replaced.

It makes you particularly vulnerable as opposed to other industries. Yes, there is abuse of the H1 program but the problem of US citizens losing jobs cannot be blamed entirely on the H1 program or any 1 cause. It is more complex than that...

The reality is there are tons of greedy and unscrupulous people in the business world. In the process of doing well aka growth and profit, most companies will use any methods to gain the advantage. I feel the issue is the people who manages the companies i.e policy makers lack moral and business ethics. Workers on the lower level suffer. So, instead of blaming the system, please look at the people or society that is abusing the system. I do agree that the system needs to be updated to prevent fraud, but it will always be a cat and mouse game. So, instead of complaining and whining like stupid spoiled kids, just shut up and use that time to look for a job or improve your skills. Any changes in policies by the government now will NOT help you get a job now. It will only take affect later. So stop discriminating HIB holders. They are not the problem. Its the CEOs and fellow AMERICANS that are screwing us!!! Know thy enemy!

Simple behavioral pattern. Do you go to a store and look for things that are selling at a discount or do you say let me pay what it cost originally. The world market runs on bidding process. Why not the employment. Today's US citizen had some ancestor who was a foreign worker. So suck it up and learn how to compete.

What we need to do is train our own people...stop closing our schools....Hire people at minimum wage and say...look its a job its the best we can do. If 1500 people will place interview for 10 jobs at IN AND OUT BURGER....trust me....they will take this. There is actually NO NEED in any WAY SHAPE OR FORM for Visas period. 1+1 is 2...if you take away one..it can't still be two...job loss is job loss.

The very first poster, Scott Dunn, hit it right on the head - this is all about fattening the bottom line so that the top brass get huge (larger) bonuses as costs shrink because of the lower wages companies can pay H1B workers. Same applies to outsourcing jobs to India.

I'm a senior software architect, 25 yrs experience, and salary surveys have kept me from a raise for 9 years! Sorry, that depression of wages is all on outsourcing to India and H1B.

Problem is, the big corps lobby the congressman who vote for these H1Bs and make donations to campaigns to get it. You and I get shut out in the process.

H1Bs should be dropped to zero today!
Every outsourced job (India, China) should be taxed at 100% to discourage it and keep jobs here in the US.

I an important point in this H1B visa issue is how it impacts the culture in work place. We have spent a century trying to reduce/eliminate discrimination from the work place. But it when these H1B get in to a place in large numbers they create a culture of prejudice and bigotry that they have brought from their home land. I worked in a consulting group (professional services group) of a company. There, due to corporate shuffling I ended up reporting to a Indian guy who was recently converted from H1B to immigrant and put into management. This because he could manage the army of H1Bs who were surrounding me. However, this Indian manager of mostly Indian H1Bs would give consulting gigs to Indians. I watched as the most incompetent and unqualified of these were sent to the assignments that I should have gone to. Eventually, when corporate talleied the billable hours for the consultants. The incompetent Indians were way ahead of me and I lost my job. So my suggestion is that we should limit the number of H1B from any one country in any one organization. When they get in number they destroy the work environment to the point no citizen wants to work there. It also changes the attitude of the management. They start thinking that everyone should be submissive, take crap and live to work.

LIMIT THE NUMBER OF HIB FROM ANY ONE COUNTRY IN ANY ONE ORGANIZATION.

Hey 'Depressed wage earner'

If you are architect for 25 years does not mean you are a "good" architect. It might be because of your performance that you have not got the raise for 25 years (gimme a break)!
Do not start dirty hate politics. When economy is fine H1 doubles our earnings and economy. Just because some wallstreet guys screwed up, we are targetting the very same H1 people! Admit that most of them are bright and do their jobs well. We cannot start taking jobs back (as you say) from China and India. Things do not work like that. If the economy was to run like the way you say, you are going to kill the whole essence of USA economy. Understand that these 4%vH1 still keep economy up because of cheaper rates and prevent the economy from going into Great Depression. USA will fight back and return to the full glory, but definitely not the way you are suggesting.

The US is in free fall.
The gov is preventing TARP companies to employ H1Bs. An H1B visa now costs $22,000 to the employee. The 2009 quota hasn't been reached yet. Not crazy these guys. All companies are off-shoring their work due to the government pressure. Knowledge transfer is done through L1 [Corp to Corp] workers (i.e. Oracle Financial Services), like IBM they only train their guys in the US and ship them back. The US IT Industry still rely heavily on expensive Microsoft and IBM Tools (that reminds me GM) when Europe has moved to Open Source and collaborative knowledge sharing. Let's revert the trend again. Let's go to India, that reminds me 500 years ago. Google 'Project Match IBM' and let's colonize India again, this is for all of those laid off US and Canadian citizens that are still paying their college tuition. Indians don't have to pay for their education, Europeans enjoy free Medical Insurance. Born, in Africa, we don't have such Medical Insurance but not like in the US we don't have to pay an arm to feed those Government protected Industries like doctors and so on.

let's eat Naan and enjoy the Gange.

I am loving globalization (300 Ruppies for a BigNaan)

We need to remove all H1B's from the Federal Government Organizations like

Federal Government Employees in the upper level are corrupted. They are cashing in by hiring cheap H1b employees into the Federal Government through the main vendors who are holding their H1's

Department Of Agriculture
Small Business Administration
Department Of Education
DEpartment of Interior.
Pension Benefit Gaurantee Corporation

All these are main culprit. The DOJ needs to investigate these organizations. TOTAL FRAUD.

Microsoft abuses H-1B. But who is going to stop them? Nobody.

Under David Greenspoon we are only allowed to hire from two venders, for years now, who just happen to only give us H-1B resumes. Its a sweet scam.

What do you think the chances are of Obama actually holding the super-rich accountable? Obama is more likely to give them a bailout and remove all caps on H-1B and other federal regulations (well just the regulations Microsoft likes).

Mirror said it well. For years, we have bought the 'low cost' product or service. We is everybody, from the top down.

WE have taken advantage of unsafe work conditions outside the US by not requiring that products and services imported into the US be made or carried out with equivalent infrastructure costs.

If it cost the same for energy and infrastructure elsewhere in the world, the labor cost differential would be much less and the economic and social pressure to move to the US would be much less.

I have been in the screw machine plants in Indonesia where men wear shorts and flip flops and work at 90 F in a cloud of cutting oil smoke. They produce top quality machine screws using some of the best American made equipment. They sell globally. The bad news is that the US no longer makes that kind of equipment. It comes out of Japan.

I would be willing to bet that 80 plus percent of all the IT people blogging here are doing 80 plus percent of their work on machines 80 plus percent made outside the US.

Yes or no to H1B, L1, etc. these don't matter much when viewed in the context of what is going on globally.

We are in deep yougart.

rax

TO Depressed wage earner :

1. I'm a senior software architect, 25 yrs experience, and salary surveys have kept me from a raise for 9 years!
- That's like saying I've played baseball all my life and hence should be in the major leagues.

2. Sorry, that depression of wages is all on outsourcing to India and H1B.
- I don't hear you complain about products you buy from Target and Walmart which get their products made in India and China.

3. Problem is, the big corps lobby the congressman who vote for these H1Bs and make donations to campaigns to get it. You and I get shut out in the process.
- There's absolutely no proof and in any case the reverse is true too. Boeing and Lockheed are probably making "donations" to Indian politicians so that they would buy their planes.

4. H1Bs should be dropped to zero today!
Every outsourced job (India, China) should be taxed at 100% to discourage it and keep jobs here in the US.
- Consumers in India and China are keeping the world economy afloat right now. Maybe they should ban US companies from selling their products in India and China.

To all you guys crying about the unfairness of it all -
1. All your forefathers took someone's else job and land. So enough of the holier than thou attitude.
2. I don't hear anyone complain about the fact that a laptop now starts at about 500 bucks and a LCD screen at about 700 bucks. If you didn't export that manufacturing jobs, you would still be paying in multiples of those prices.
3. I paid about 80k to a US university to get my engineering degree. If all the foreign students stop going to US universities, a lot of tech schools would be in serious trouble. This in turn would cause more job losses. Or maybe I should go claim bankruptcy and just go back.
4. At GM and Chrysler, cushy union jobs made sure that people get paid upto 75$ an hour - to put cars together. This is exactly why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Well they aren't getting raises either.
5. I have yet to hear someone say that they are fine with making 10% on their stocks and 401 every year.

America has been the world's foremost capitalist country, so be proud of it. Immigrants made this country, so please let's not lose focus here. This program is being badly managed and is being screwed over by everyone. Lets look to fix it rather than blame it for all the world's troubles.

Well, I think what goes up must go down - you get what you pay for.

I work as a consultant and I laugh when I see the designs and bloat code. It has been what, ten years (at best) since this push took place. Now, all this software written by inexperienced developers, undocumented, hard coded and with temp files all over the place, is hitting companies hard. They need to change the way they do business...and their code changes are taking way too long and when it’s done its wrong....and their outsourced IT wont talk...they got these companies by the bxxxx

My guess is that the CEO’s will try to blame the economy for the rising costs....but that’s not it...its expensive to maintain badly written undocumented code....

I am getting 2 -3 calls a week, they need someone to come in for 6 - 9 months to work with their outsourced IT....these companies are in trouble and they don’t know what to do....I predict a rise in US consulting whose sole purpose is to fix and upgrade systems.

I also get tired of hearing about how all these outsourced workers who come here under visas get a free ride at colleges and have their expenses paid for. I didn't get my education for free, so why should they get it with our tax dollars?

They allow the worker to come here, they setup paid housing for them, they give them an allowance, and then pay for all their school tuition. In turn, they get everything they need while the college student who's struggling may not be able to ever reach graduation due to lack of funding. It's utter garbage and I think the college student is the one who should be getting the funding that he or she needs.

They are not investing in our youth but the youth of places like India. Since when is it the taxpayers responsibility to pay to train them? If a company want to get a lower priced worker, then make THEM pay for all of their costs and I mean all. No tax breaks, no nothing.

I am on H1 for YEARS and been paying 30% in taxes just like any other American (birthed by the immigrant).

I paid for my own cost of living and moving to this country while the only thing that company has provided is a j.o.b. with 'at will' hire/fire.

In return I get to enjoy living in fear and possibility of 'being shipped home' not just fired and in return not being able to even get unemployment or any other benefits as minuscule they might be. This is a great motivator to put-in extra 20-30 UNPAID overtime hours in this great country of yours. Slavery concepts ring a bell to anyone?

On the other hand, last generation of Americans has grown up thinking how no one really needs the education and they will become a new teenage millionaire by inventing something as youtube or ebay.
Nothing is for free and just seems that Americans have forgotten what hard work is while living of credit cards. You should talk to your 'oldtimers' about what real work is.

Face the music...it is your own fault but it is so much easier to blame someone else than actually do something about it. Now go to school and compete while making this country what it used to be.

If all the immigrants would leave this country (including Joe the Plumber and his Arian family)...only Native Americans will be left.