Experts Debate H-1B Visas, Foreign Worker Issues
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Props to Brian Watson at CIO Insight. You know when the New York Times pubs a piece entitled, "Do We Need Foreign Technology Workers?" things are bubbling to the surface. The article, which is part of a larger series on technology and immigration issues, is about much more than the controversial H-1B program. Think overall immigration and green card policies, and the influence on academics, research, patents and U.S. labor. And yet, H-1Bs are certainly on the mind of all the experts who contributed to the piece. Let's take a closer look at what experts have to say specifically about the H-1B program in the article. I think you'll notice the degree to which H-1Bs are on the minds of researchers, lawyers, academics and entrepreneurs. An expert from Duke and Harvard, Vivek Wadhwa, said the biggest problem he is seeing is that policies leading to significant decrease in permanent residence visas cause the best talent not to want to stay in the United States, and America will see a decline in innovation as top talent is leaving. So, India and China will have the edge in technology. Citing research he participated in that shows the impact in economic terms of immigrants in technology, Wadhwa calls U.S. immigration policies "shortsighted." H-1B visa rules are inflexible, thwart job growth and cause what he calls "immigration limbo." It's limbo because H-1Bs trying to get permanent residence will lose their spots in the permanent line if they get promoted or take a better-paying job; oh, and spouses can't work, have a Social Security number or drive. From the article:
So, the caramelized sugar atop the creme brulee is leaving, but what about the folks in H-1B visa programs? Are they really top talent? Another expert, attorney and programmer John Miano, who founded the advocacy group the Programmers Guild, in the article poked serious holes in the notion and the mythology about what constitutes a "highly skilled" worker.
Hence, my post yesterday on TechAmerica, an organization whose claims smell rotten of H-1B visa promotion at a time when a profitable IBM has North American layoffs, but doesn't want to tell anyone. |
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Comments (28)
In response to the article, "Do we need foreign technology workers (H-1B Visa) in the U.S."? I have worked in information systems for over 20 years. Since 1997, I have noticed a flood of Indian, Chinese and other Eastern Europeans into the U.S. for IT jobs. Most were less talented than U.S. workers. Their understanding of the English language was very good -- but, their writing skills especially 'technical' writing were poor. Unfortunately, the foreign workers also lacked understanding of U.S. accounting and inventory systems. The only advantage to U.S. companies in hiring foreign IT talent was saving money by paying them a lower wage than U.S. workers.
Posted by Phyllis | April 9, 2009 12:41 PM
"This is even most troubling when you consider that 47 percent of all U.S. science and engineering workers with doctorates are immigrants as were 67 percent of the additions to the U.S. science and engineering work force between 1995 to 2006. And roughly 60 percent of engineering Ph.D. students and 40 percent of master's students are foreign nationals."
What troubles me most about this is that apparently the U.S. has slowed in its turnout of top math, science, and engineering people. Why is this? Are our schools (K - Ph.D.) failing? Does our media glamorize top sports figures and the millions they make for what kids do to have fun?
Do kids see math, science and engineering as a long, hard path with little reward?
Our goal as a country should be to eliminate the H1-B program because the best folks are from here and everyone knows that companies hiring H1-B labor are just looking for cheap help.
Posted by Mark | April 9, 2009 4:54 PM
Most guest foreign workers I have worked with are just average or sometimes incompetent. Most lie in their resumes so that most clients have to give them the easiest tasks in a project. Two reasons most companies use guest workers on H1b and L1 visas are:
a) to replace Americans and Green Card holders with cheap foreign labor
b) to replace older Americans and Green Card holders with younger foreign labor
Also, let me me clear a myth; these guest worker visas like H1b and L1 are temporary visas. They are meant to augment when there is a labor shortage for that skill. Well at this time there are millions of highly skilled Americans and legal residents (green card holders) that are unemployed so there is NO NEED for the guest workers. They are NOT IMMIGRANTS but temporary workers. If Obama cancels these visas, it would open a lot of high paying jobs for Americans and legal residents.
Posted by debug | April 11, 2009 12:00 PM
I hope some CIOs read this blog, because they need to get a message:
THERE WILL BE RETRIBUTION
America I.T. professionals are tired of getting thrown under the bus and forced to train there low-skill, low-wage replacements.
American programmers are not lazy and stupid. This is a canard spread by the H-1B lobby. Just because you are an unemployed programmer doesn't mean that your skills are not current -- it just means that some American I.T. exec hired a guest worker instead.
We are no longer getting the best and brightest from abroad, we are getting dull and the dumbest.
And we don't need any guest workers with H-1Bs or L-1s in I.T. anymore and getting rid of guest workers in I.T. will create one million jobs for Americans and add revenues to local economies. Most guest workers live frugaly in close quarters and send their money home.
Finally, almost all I.T. H-1Bs and L-1s come from one place - India. Their nepotism and corrupting is rampant in American I.T. shops now.
So, since the U.S. government won't do anything and CIOs are intent on displacing us, we are taking matters into our own hands.
Posted by Tunnel Rat | April 11, 2009 1:39 PM
We need so many more different people in the industry. Blacks, latinos, women, veterans, old white guys, all sorts of folks that make life in the cubes cool and fun.
I am sick of dealing with nothing but surly men from a backwards sub-continent. I go to work, hear the bickering in broken English, or worse, Hindi, and then have to deal with a marble-mouthed retard from Mumbai when I have a problem with my bank account or computer.
Screw You, Corporate America.
You have been throwing all of us Americans under the bus, just so you can boost your bottom line. We are sick of your offshored help and bozo imports sent here to be "debelopers".
We want jobs in I.T., and we we deserve them. We will expose you and your offshoring/outsourcing/onshoring ways and out you I.T. execs as the true bigots.
Yeah, you, Biff and Jody, Mr. and Mrs. CIO and V.P. of H.R. that are filling out all those H-1B and L-1 petitions. Your pictures are going to be all over the web, and you can expect the stink-eye from the kids who worked their way through Comp-Sci degrees only to see you give their jobs to a phony with a fake "CV" from the other side of the world.
Posted by Kevin Flanagan | April 11, 2009 1:54 PM
If these imported workers from the 3rd world are so smart then why are AMERICANS training them? As a software professional who has written 19 successful commercial products and co-invented anti-spam software in 1997, I can tell you, these people are far from the best and brightest. This is International Socialism - taking from the productive countries and giving to the unproductive countries. From each according to his abilities, to each according to his need.
89% of H-1B visas go to people from India. Why are we importing millions of people from countries with miserable track records economically and not importing people from countries with huge proven engineering success rates? (Japan and Germany, for example).
Let's run down the list of companies "helped" by imported 3rd world guest workers.
Bell Labs - Taken over in 2002 by Arun Netravalli - an Indian national. Bell Labs went bankrupt and closed its doors in 2007.
PeopleSoft - Taken over by imported Indian H-1Bs in 2000. PeopleSoft later lost its core business and the smouldering hulk had to be sold off to Oracle in order to avoid a huge embarassment to Indian outsourcing firms.
Sun - Taken over in 2000 by imported Indian and Chinese workers. Sun is now trying to find a buyer because the business is no longer viable. A closure of Sun would be another embarassing mark on India's poor IT record.
Microsoft. MS shipped programming work to India 5-6 years ago. Vista, the laughingstock of the PC world, is the result. MS's stock is around $18 now when it used to be $100.
Quark - Quark was nearly destroyed and lost 60% of its market to Adobe when it laid off its American development staff and shipped all the work to India. Quark Express 6 was a complete disaster. The company was taken over by an Indian conman fraud - Alukah Kamar who made the outsourcing decision. The board later fired him when they found out what was happening but it was already too late. Quark is still trying to recover.
Adobe - Adobe was taken over by an Indian CEO 2 years ago. The stock has fallen 50% since.
MIT had opened a "Media Lab Asia" in India but later canceled the project when it discovered Indian management was infalting invoices.
Intel killed the Whitefield CPU design project in India when it discovered Indian engineers didn't have the talent claimed.
GE - GE sent its aircraft fan blade design work to India. When the blades were manufactured in Mexico and put into service, they cracked and failed. A manager at GE blew the whistle but she was fired and the defects covered up. 28,000 of the fan blades are still in use in aircraft engines worldwide.
I could go on but you get the idea.
The fact of the matter is, the H-1B and guest worker programs have a lot more to do with what developing countries want from the U.S. than about any real need. Stories of fake Indian resumes and degrees are endless. U.S. managers are being conned but do not know it. Many of the foreign workers get into management at U.S. companies and deliberately lay off American workers and replace them with foreign workers who can't do the work. In the case of India and China there are also racial and historical issues because of Britain's colonization of those countries 100-150 years ago which makes them resent the west as a whole. We bring them in by the millions, they make sure we are kept out of jobs.
The typical H-1B sends $100,000 home over 6 years. They don't want to stay here or become Americans. They are here because there is money to be harvested. Now you know the real reason for the 'credit crisis' (wealth siphoning).
Americans can't buy cars & houses if they don't have jobs. Now you know the real reasons for the 'recession'.
Posted by Mike | April 11, 2009 6:54 PM
"We also surveyed 1,224 foreign students in the U.S. and learned that they were thinking much like the returnees. Only 6 percent of Indian, 10 percent of Chinese, and 15 percent of European students want to stay permanently. (In the past, most Indian and Chinese Ph.D.s in science and engineering ended up making the U.S. their home.)
And roughly 60 percent of engineering Ph.D. students and 40 percent of master's students are foreign nationals."
Why do our universities and colleges admit (even worse, grant scholoarships) foreign nationals over our own US students when we know they're going to take their education back to their country?
And people wonder why other countries are propering...
Posted by Confused | April 14, 2009 1:11 PM
On average around 138,000 foreigners arrive here each month with work visa's and jobs in hand.
This has been going on for years and years and its going on even now due to the system being on auto pilot.
Thats 1.6 million jobs removed from the market each year.
Since November 2008 around 2.7 million US citizens have been laid off but during that same period nearly 700,000 workers have arrived due to the immigration system being on automatic.
See numbersusa.com
Posted by vectrav2 | April 14, 2009 1:12 PM
Let us sink or swim with American talent. If we can't do the job, why should we be proud to have foreign nationals do the job for us? Better to lose against a Boris Spassky than to send a Bobby Fischer to the unemployment line.
Posted by Robert | April 14, 2009 1:31 PM
It is obvious that Vivek Wadhwa is talking about a different population than the overwhelming number of mediocre technicians allowed into the country under the H1b program which Vivek Wadhwa does not understand was not designed to increase immigrants but only to provide temporary workers. If the program were changed to only allow workers to stay who had a PhD from a recognized US University then he might have a case. I would like to know how many of the H1b entrants meet this requirement: probably significantly less than 1000.
Posted by Phil Green | April 14, 2009 1:47 PM
Does anyone else have a problem with unbiased "expert" opinion on this issue from someone named Vivek Wadhwa?
Posted by Bills | April 14, 2009 1:48 PM
You nailed it, Mark. Where's the encouragement to American youth to go into technical and engineering fields? We know the US is falling behind in education of our kids, but do we pump more money into that education? We need to encourage kids to go into tech and engineering fields, and we need the educational system to help do that. We need to stop cutting the very programs that help kids get into those fields. Which means we also need to encourage teachers to dig deeper into tech and engineering sidebars so they can help students develop not only interest but talent in those areas.
Posted by JH | April 14, 2009 1:50 PM
As a 60 year old Air Force veteran with over 20 years IT experience, I commiserate and agree with the comments posted here. We have let this problem go on too long. Now many of those foreign workers are resident aliens and hold the hiring and firing authority in front line companies. Although I have nothing against them personally, I understand their need to self-actualize and make their way in life like the rest of us, but they are not Americans and for the most part have no desire to become so. Even if they did, why should native born American workers be penalized? It's all about the money as has been already indicated above (or below). There is little control over the desire of companies to reduce their cost of doing business. So if you give them the opportunity to use cheaper foreign workers without regard to the socio-economic impact upon native born workers, well, you get what we have allowed to occur.
I respect the technical skills of many Indian and other foreign workers. Some are exceptional. But the newest arrivals, especially when they have not been schooled here in America are predominately illiterate in the English language. Although I can not personally verify the inflation of foreign resumes and credentials, I have seen and competed against 24 year old Project Managers with the PMP certification who could not possibly have the required experience for that credential. Guess who gets the job?
At my last contracting opportunity in which I was extended twice for 6 months each for a total of over 18 months, I daily thought I was in a foreign country given the rather extreme diversity of both the employees and contract workers. In any meeting I attended, more than half of the assembled workers were foreign born. That condition was a big deal to the company. They openly strove for it and have an Indian development entity to whom they ship offshore any required development - despite the higher cost, lower quality and questionable turn-around time. At the end of that tour I was hopeful for employee status. No can do GI. Hiring freeze. More qualified people available. Etc. Do you think the inordinate number of foreign workers had anything to do with my odds of being hired?
Socialism? Probably. Marxism? Most likely. Can international economies work? Sure, if you are willing to give up your sovereignty and prosperity here at home. I'm not ready to go that far. Are you?
Posted by Flyboy | April 14, 2009 1:54 PM
I have personally worked with groups from India on outsourced projects. In virtually all cases, cost overruns due to poor understanding of the requirements (language issues), poor design and coding skills, and general lack of interest caused these projects to cost far more than if they had been done here in the US. The VP/manager that was in place during the original outsourcing received a big bonus because of their "innovative cost containment", but was conveniently in a different job or at a different company when the s**t hit the fan.
While Michael Douglas might say "Greed Is Good" in the movies, and while I do agree to some level that desire to be upwardly mobile is a good trait, doing so while harming other is something that should not be tolerated. Americans will (eventually) take back their country, either by voting the appropriate people into office (boy did they make a mistake last election but to be fair the alternative wasn't great either) or force if/when necessary. It is in our constitution that we must protect our company from all enemies - FOREIGN - AND - DOMESTIC.
Graduate schools invariably end up paying the students to complete their degrees by some type of research or teaching assistantship. Why do we use our dollars to teach students that will graduate, leave the country, then turn their knowledge against us? Look at all the people who were educated in fields such as Nuclear Engineering that came from Pakistan, India, Korea, etc during the 70's and 80's - guess where they are now and what many of them are doing.
There are many jobs that provide "Veteran" benefits - that is, simply by being a veteran, you get more bonus points during the consideration for the position. I believe that something like this should be instituted for grad schools. US Citizens should be given a HIGH priority - you know that we were born here and with a much higher degree of certainty will STAY here and not use that education against our country.
Of course, I am a bit hypocritical. I have told my two sons that they should in all probability forget engineering and take up something that will never be outsourced like law. I know the jokes about lawyers will be coming up, but face it, politicians started off as lawyers and so they will never allow that to be outsourced! What else is left - Politicians (not to be confused with a similar order of beings - rodentia), Police, Fire, & Teachers (noble professions and ones that you almost never see people from India apply for!), and then there are a lot of low paying service jobs.
Posted by Stan Synerski | April 14, 2009 2:00 PM
This kind of information needs to be seen/read by President Obama and his officials. How to get it to them?
Posted by Voice of Reason | April 14, 2009 2:17 PM
@Mike I can add to your list: Verizon had for like 6 months their website inaccessible in the payment section. Citibank cards the site does not add correctly.
However not all the H1Bers were bad. There was a time when they were (most of them) good. That was before Y2K scare.
what NASSCOM did was to sell India as a IT powerhouse. Therefore they hired everybody and their father, mother sister, brother and pretend they were all IT workers. Of course about 90% of it is subpar, but the bean counters do not care about that. I know Indians in US that are very good and I deal with what comes from offshore and it is a major pile of kuku. Utlimatelly that would turn against the US companies and it already did. Too bad for some of us it is too late.
Posted by Johnny | April 14, 2009 2:37 PM
Ross Perot, as prescient as always, said during his bid for Prez, "You don't trade down: you trade equal or trade up." Thanks to corporate America, we have been trading down in IT for decades. Unfortunately, we are getting the 3rd world repressive regime "package." IT sweatshops, falling wages to 3rd world levels, brain drain, dropping interest in science and IT due to the same poor wages and working conditions. In the Bible, Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew. That's exactly what corporate America is cooking up: a bowl of slop in exchange for our future. They roll out the old cowboy mythology of the fastest gunslinger (e.g.,"if you code better than the next guy, you'll get the job.") That is simplistic ignorant BULLSH** propaganda. IT should have done what MDs, attorneys, and other professions did: ORGANIZE. Unfortunately IT swallowed the slop with a side of cowboy. Now science and engineering is going the way of the cowboy. Extinction.
Posted by DB | April 14, 2009 4:03 PM
After reading some of the comments it sounds like everyone hate Indians.I am proud Indian and I got some news for you guys we aren't third world anymore. I guess you guys didn't know about our moon mission and being a major player to launch satellites for others such as Israel etc.., I can list in a heart bit lot of successful business run by Indians too but that's not the reason I decided to comment here.
I think you guys should first learn to respect your competitor (H1B workers) and not underestimate them. Your downfall with start as soon as you develop this attitude. I would rather want you guys to think what was reason you got pushed out.You guys think everyone in the world should buy American product but they cannot take a piece of the profit pie. This attitude resulted in Birtish Empire and noone wants to go there again. Do you think when India ordered Boeing airbus planes American jobs were not saved? Do you think all these IT business didn't bring business to Intels, Ciscos of american industry?
Please stop the hate talk and think about finding ways to improve your talent to reach higher goals in your life. Remember you can channel the hate energy for something useful.
Thanks
Posted by Selvam | April 14, 2009 9:25 PM
Another untold story regarding this is the abusive management practices of the Indian outsourcers perpetrated against both Americans and their OWN people. Companies like Wipro treat their people like crap. Most of the guys they bring over from India are competent and they speak English well, but they don't always understand the nuances of American language which makes communicating with them very difficult. They don't have a complete understanding of American business practices and focus on some of the most meaningless, asinine issues without grasping the total requirements. Their management drive these guys like slaves requiring 24 x 7 work and availability with no regard for their personal and family lives and they dare not complain. These guys are miserable and can't wait to get back home. The real value of the H-1B program is access to American mind share by foreign workers. We get cheap labor and they get to train in the best technical environments under the best minds in the world. We're getting the short end of this deal. They should be paying a premium for this experience and to offset the cost of displaced American workers.
Posted by Ron | April 14, 2009 10:11 PM
Why not use this information as a way in which to take some of the 780+ billion in economic stimulus and put it to use so that the US can address academic programs and incentives for well-educated science and engineering programs?? Offer free ride for AMERICAN students that possess the grades and the smarts to be able to take advantage of the opportunities this country should provide to its citizens in advanced education which can then lead to a better percentage of US citizens advancing where we have been seriously outnumbered according to this article.
Posted by kb | April 15, 2009 10:13 AM
Wow some stereotyping here. Is the subpar brainpower from the subcontinent also the reason why 4 out of 10 scientists at NASA are Indian? But no need for the jealousy on this board, it's also a land of intense suffering, and for no fault of the individuals at the receiving end. Yes people will try to rise above their circumstances.. to me that is something to be admired than derided.
I'm Indian, in the IT field here in the US, and have yet to come across the quality of people I worked with in the STARTUP company I worked for in India. And I say quality of people, rather than jut technical skills, because they were just excellent people in every aspect. Here in the US, I've often been called upon to interview candidates by my employers (NOT recruiting firms), and my experience with local talent has been disappointing. The locals that are good are really good but too few, the rest fib and fumble their way through so much that it becomes a painful experience. I am especially irritated when I find I am interviewing a management or semi-technical person for a technical position, but only through my own gentle prodding and poking, not by the candidate's own admission. This has happened often. So it's a myth that fake resumes are only foreign. I have similar experiences with foreign students with a year or two of after-school experience, but rarely had trouble with an H1-B's skills. This has been my consistent experience over years of interviewing. The one time I found a fellow lead (an American) had hired a fake resume (Indian) - I dug deeper and had the boss let the H1B go. My point is that the world is not black and white. Your "us versus them" mentality is besides the point of maintaining professionalism in the workplace and providing quality output at a reasonable rate. You cannot generalize the capabilities or morality of people based on where they come from or the culture they belong to.
What is more worrying than your xenophobic tendencies is that people at the top don't have conscience enough to cut down their incomes and spread it around a bit among their own countrymen - it is reflective of the greed in today's society - if any one of you self-righteous "Americans" on this board found yourselves in the shoes of your CEO, I would bet my last penny you wouldn't refuse that multi-million dollar bonus.
Posted by GH | April 17, 2009 12:09 AM
Xeonphobic? No, national security is more like it. We should be propping up our own nation, our own tech - not Indian tech.
Correct the market, lower the wages, and bring the superior American tech worker into the black again. Make it worthwhile to hire the American first - and never hire the foreigner.
Scrap H1B completely. And to the millions of unemployed, superior American tech workers - offer them a new option: Work for what the market is willing to pay you- not what your 90's pipedream tech job was. It's unrealistic. When professionals of the same grade in other fields Accounting, Law, Medical - get LESS than what the American tech worker was getting - something was definitely wrong. $40K to start and $65-70k for the better, is fair in my books.
A job for a lower wage is better for you, the nation, and our economy as a whole - than no job at all.
Xenophobic? No. I fear our enemies. It's an adversary-phobia. India and China are enemies - they are no friends of ours. There is NO REASON we should be giving them American technology training.
Posted by KyanWan | April 18, 2009 11:39 PM
Most of your comments are baised and prejudiced-may be skewed is a better term..! Sorry dudes-I am an Indian gal who went to school in the USofA and worked a tech job. I know many average, below-avg and brilliant ones who work in the tech US. nothing goes wrong w/out both the parties being involved.
1. there are many brillian american tech guys -yes but they are not loyal to the company and they demand much $. indian dudes/dudettes can be made to sit in the place -thru visa restrictions - in 1 place for yrs..
2. I agree that many tech workers fm india are below avg in performance/language. Many - we hv no real stats but not ALL! this happened in the wake of Y2K when USofA needed a lot of techys cheap to work on y2k issues and didnt bother to filter out the incompetent ones. they came at th right time-got their green cards and setteled-I feel its not fair for people like me who invested in your edu.system and still got caught into the male-dominated, political corporate crap.
But, if Americans are so cool, why couldnt they hv strict system like they have for immigration. ???? why did they allow people to come in with fake resumes?
3.so, you can STEREOTYPE indians and stop them -remember- your american goods are MADE in China-its the same eco.formula. can you stop that and get more manufacturing jobs to US. MADE in china is worse than an imitation in India! low quality walmart stuff. AND to the ill-informed, narrow-minded rednecks-:India is not 3rd world country- the term is 'developing country' - we have more millionares and billionares than US - ie., not just in paper.
Hey I love USA but its sad that people like you exist in such a great nation. your nation was founded on the principle of freedom!! with settlers.OR
MAY BE THIS IS KARMA GETTING YOU FOR WHAT YOU DID TO THE 'OTHER' INDIANS. !!!!! HA.
NEVERTHELESS I LIKE USA, INDIA AND THE Wonderful Obama..
PEACE TO ALL.
Posted by avgdesi | May 26, 2009 9:00 AM
Its shame that modern US men speak like this !
What I find here is 'Preofessional Jealousy'. Its a kind of xenophobic Stereotyping one whole country and its men and culture.
I'm an Indian and I worked abroad for many years'. Sorry guys, I couldnt find what you people said the 'brilliant minds of US and West' always. I can agree that some are very well trained and very good. But NOT ALL. Your young generation is just fancying about Pop and Music and Reality Operas while others in East are trying hard to pass their tough college examinations.
My request to you people is just sit back and think for a while before blaming Indians.
1. Globalisation is YOUR product not OURS. Opening global markets outside your country must be treated in a SAME WAY as Opening your own country for foreign labour.
2. You cant say that you want the money and market from India but not going to employ Indians in your companies!
3. OK. Do one thing. Produce as far as goods you can in US and consume it their alone. Dont sell it outside. Please ask Microsoft, Citi Group etc to do the business in US alone. And Employ you people only. Not a single non-US men. Wait for an year or two and then see, what 'll happen to your jobs.
Your multinational companies are making huge profits Outside US. You want the business and market in India. and then you are blaming about you are lossing jobs back in your country!
4. If you are afraid about loosing your jobs to Indians, then ask your US Govt to stop doing business and opening markets in India.
5. First stop your country giving away the benefits of Permanent Resisency, Citizenship etc to Indians, to which some foolish Indians are trapped. Actually these are things/tricks many Govts used to counterbalance the opening of global markets to their multinational companies. Poor immigrants might think they are getting much sympathy from developed world.
6. Please dont underestimate people in East or loose your temper. Proud to be an American and value other people outside yours because people in the world know you are a great nation.
Posted by Anand Prathap | July 3, 2009 6:44 AM
wow..
ignorance never escapes americans, and I'M an american.
I can tell by the earlier messages that you guys (the americans on this blog) know NOTHING about BUSINESS, let alone international business, nor do you know anything about what benefits business in the U.S.
Oh God please let our people understand!!!! I hate having to keep feeling embarrassed by my fellow Americans' ignorant mentalities! God bless the USA, and the world.
Posted by marco | October 6, 2009 7:36 PM
Some of the words in here are correct and others just plain wrong.
I graduated from a state-university in US; Most undergrads with a 3+ GPA are interns in NASA and DoD. That is a high/very high level of encouragement for American students. The average students are encouraged through various part-time jobs through research offered through grants by professors. Almost any American citizen in my college could walk into the Professor's office and tell her, I want be part of the research and they are in. $800 a month for sitting in the room and developing robots that turn around when they hit a wall.
Computer science is just not 'cool' enough for most students, the American girls don't really dig the nerdy computer science guys. Your society itself discourages guys from showing their abilities! I talked to a professor I was close to about this and he said the only way of running his department was to recruit more Chinese and Indian students.
Posted by Yeti | March 22, 2010 8:43 PM
This is an interesting topic and though I am Indian I totally understand the growing resent among americans who finally seem to have some clarity on the current immigrant situation in the US.
I would like to steer the ship in a new direction, in the sense, would like to bring to your attention a fresh viewpoint to this debate....
H1B workers primarily from India come with their individual advantanges and disadvantages to the US depending on their education/experience/race(india is diverse and every race have their unique characteristics unlike the americans who are not so radically diverse)
There is a distinct difference in quality between the indian students who spend 3-4 years studying in US universities who are more acclimatized to the US culture and adapt better and blend into the population and later change their visas to H1B to continue living in the US. These are the students who qualified based on global certifications (SAT/GRE) and have earned their degrees coming from a relatively poor country like India. It is unfair to say that they are the "dumb & the dumbest" as they qualify for admissions based on their IQ, Quantitative, Verbal and Analytical abilities and pay the Universities huge sums of money to complete their degrees.
Another angle to this argument is that the H1B program is fundamentally flawed as there is no technical evaluation done in order to obtain a visa. This will eliminate the Indian workers who make use of the loopholes in the system (misrepresenting facts like their education, experience and technical skills) no route to escape. There must be a way to organize Computer Based Online Testing for skilled workers on each skill set. This will simply eliminate fraud and inflow of unskilled H1B workers into the US...
The third and the controversial angle that I wanted to discuss is the diversity of races in India and their direct relationships to professional and academic performance. It is a fact that India has a mixture of caucosoid/negroid/mongloid races and hence the characteristic of each race is distinct.......research has proven that the caucosoid skull is much thinner and the size of the brain is 10% larger as compared with the negroid skull (Debatable topic quoted from a research link - not proven). India has a mixture of caucosoid, mongloid and even negroid races and you will find that most of the brahmins will fit into the caucosoid category....physically hence possessing similar mental capabilities. It has been proven that the Jews and the Indian Brahmins possess the highest per capita IQ....therefore if you are a smart american focus on the indian brahmins when you recruit and leave them out when you talk about an indian sample population :-)....
above all, I dont understand how eliminating H1B is going to increase jobs in the US, if this huge chunk of the high income group leaves the US, the buying power is going to drastically decrease, hence affecting production and therefore jobs ??? its just the keynesian theory dude :-)....remeber the indians pay taxes as well....unlike your mexican counterparts...
on the other hand look at the % of american kids doing drugs and dropping out of school, its quite alarming as compared with our Indian stats...I would say eliminate drugs and the gangsta culture from your schools and enforce strict rules for american "caucasian" kids to graduate and go on to work....work on your roots....its going to take a long time....removing H1B is only going to hurt the US market big time...and not focussing on the youth is going to create a disastrous imbalance in the US market!!!!
Posted by bagv | May 20, 2010 4:43 PM
Hi,
I am an Indian.I read the above comment and i was very impressed about the same.I want to reinstate some of them.Americans are partly right on some h1b workers being low skilled.I personally believe there should be some kind of technical evaluation on all technologies and English language test like GRE/IELTS for anybody applying for H1b.Why does US does not have a clean immigration system which filters the talent in India.Americans should blame their Immigration policy for not taking the best talent from India.There was a time even Policemen,Hawkers prepared fake resumes,paid money to some local consulatancy who happened to be body shopping to some US companies and went to US and settled there.In lure of saving costs these US companies did not even think about filtering these weeds from India.For these kind of fake folks many talented indians could not get through the US as 65000 H1b quota used to be filled within days.These indians with little or no knowledge of english, with no prior idea of tecnology like SAP,.Net,Java started working with high paid tech workers in US.Now you can imagine working with them,what kind of perception Americans might have formed.So who is to blame indians or US immigration system.Positively there were many talented,hard working indians made their presence in US and i know many of them who are adding significant value to US organizations.They can speak very good english,they understand business and they are serious of pursuing their carrer further in US as they consider US as a land of innovation.Indians go their not only to earn money but to gain exposure of Business,innovation and work methodology.
As far as business is concerned,American companies have been greatly profitable by outsourcing and H1b.They saved costs and also delivered better.I have worked with Mncs like Accenture,IBM in past.I can't say US tech workers are all skillful.I have worked along with US tech workers of nearly 5-6 yrs more experince than me and personally i never felt any problem understanding their language and techical approach.When it comes to technology alone i have seen many indians with only 2-3 yrs experience doing equivalent work of their 7-8 yrs experience US counteparts.
Yes I agree,Some outsourcing projects fail miserably.The reasons for that are managers in India.They don't make any specific project scope planning,Requirement gathering and all.
I have interacted with many US employees and i was astonished to find their overall approach from this aspect.It is not only Americans but also Indians working in US plan better and deliver better at managerial level.So it was never due to the IT workers but due to middle level management failure some outsourcing projects failed so awfully.I hope US would come out with a clean immigration system and understand that if it has rights to sell it's products in India similarly Indians have right to work in US.If that is not possible stop this non sense Globalization concept.Let's ban US products in India and let them ban indian prodcuts there.Let US not export any foreign workers nor it should sell any of it's technology outside..nothing.Create as many jobs you want in US and be happy.
Posted by jphsuk | October 29, 2010 1:02 PM