Does Microsoft have any more imaginative bones in their collective body? I saw their Touch system a few months ago, which is kinda cool, but does have a lot of resemblance to the iPhone.

Plus, a dock in Windows?! First the Apple to Start button rip off, and now this?!

To Mr. Gates: You're leaving the MS as a piece of crap company that just buys companies and doesn't actually innovate.

To Mr. Jobs: You will soon be having a new (and probably loyal) customer.

> Can the graphics accelerator really handle all those multitouch capabilities? I wonder.

Joe, what does the tablet's GPU have to do with how the system reads the touchscreen? One is (part of) an output device, the other is an input device. Don't conflate the two devices just because one happens to be installed on top of the other. Whether or not a given touchscreen will support any of these shiny "multitouch" input methods has nothing to do with its GPU, and everything to do with the design of the touchscreen and the touchscreen's controller.

On a more general note: regardless of whether MS is ripping off Apple's iCandy here, touchscreens are only useful in specific (and very limited) market segments, and will not replace the mouse. Any industry pundits who publicly predict such a replacement owe me a personal air-car.

I noticed the sleight-of-hand too, Joe.

Another thing about the OSX ripoff. Mossberg correctly noted the "dock", but notice that the Latitude demo also used a OSX-like application menu bar at the top of the screen.

The utter lack of creativity coming from MSFT in recent years is alarming.

People who think multi-touch and the Dock are symbolic of creativity from Apple are sadly deluded. Apple has no more a corner on this than Microsoft. Just because Apple got it first on the iPhone, every Mac Fanatic has to turn nose up on any other system that implements it. True innovation doesn't mean "first to implement someone else's idea".

Funny how snooty and ignorant often come in a nice package.

Very nice review, and nice catch on the switch from the laptop to pc. The windows 7 release code may be faster than the development code, I would assume that debugging will be turned off in the release, but who knows with Microsoft.

The news that Windows 7 will share the Vista kernel is another disappointment for Windows users who were hoping for the fabled 'min win' kernel that would be modular (like the NeXT kernel OS X is based on). They'll get the same 32 bit OS that dates back to the mid-80's NT based kernel. I know that Vista 64 thunks 32 bit code, does it still thunk 16 bit code as well? For Windows User's sake, I hope not!

Speaking of NeXT, the dock you refer to was on Next before OS X. Docks are a pretty common feature on many Unix-like GUIs dating back to the days when Apple sold more Apple II's than Macs. Its not really right to think of the Dock as an 'OS X dock'. Better to consider it the OS X implementation of the Unix dock.

@sean: 64-bit XP won't run 16-bit programs (afaik) so presumably neither will 64-bit Vista.

@alphadog
True innovation doesn't mean "first to implement someone else's idea".

No--but Apple in recent years keeps humiliating MSFT by being first to implement and integrate (i.e., deliver) these creative ideas in simple, effective, and easy-to-use ways. Of what use is a good idea if you can't bring it to benefit end-users?

Example: With 27 years of IT experience, I remember Gates through the years talking about making the Windows filesystem a SQL DB, with the goal of fast search (and of course effectively locking your data to a Windows license.)

MSFT has worked on WinFS for more than a decade without success in making it fast, reliable, and easy-to-use enough for release. The Longhorn "reset" in 2004 was in large part the realization that WinFS was still not ready for primetime.

At the June 2004 WWDC, Jobs blew away the MSFT engineers in attendance by demonstrating lightning fast Spotlight searches on Tiger (OSX 10.4). The court-released MSFT emails show how flabbergasted they were, and the imperative of getting the Tiger preview DVDs back to Redmond for reverse engineering. Comments by MSFT's Jim Allchin and Lenn Pryor were priceless.

Here's Pryor:

" You will have to take Vic's disk...I am not giving mine up. ;) Tonight I got on corpnet, hooked up Mail.app to my Exchange server and then downloaded all of my mail into the local file store. I did system wide queries against docs, contacts, apps, photos, music, and my Microsoft email on a Mac. It was f*cking amazing. It is like I just got a free pass to Longhorn land today."

Here's Allchin:

"Yes. I know. It is hard to take. I don't believe we will have search this fast."

With speed, elegance, and simplicity, Apple made system-wide search work. Apple made multimedia work. Apple made increasingly sophisticated GUI's work. Don't listen to me, listen to MSFT's own executives and engineers!

MSFT's inability to execute good ideas with speed, simplicity, and elegance in recent years is very troubling. However, if there is an exec in the MSFT hierarchy can turn this around, Sinofsky is the man to do it.

Correction on the Windows 7 Taskbar looking like the Dock Joe.

Well, it certainly looks different with more transparency and bigger button icons when an active application is selected on the Taskbar. Then again, its very early in Windows 7's development, what we might have seen was just a temporary ui inconsistency that will be fixed in later builds. Even in an official video on Microsoft's Windows Vista blog, the Windows 7 demo uses the traditional slim Windows Taskbar. Then again, for users with stuby fingers, the usability of the Windows UI might need to be improved for a Touch experience which gives reason to the enlarged Taskbar.

You can achieve a similar look now in Windows Vista. Right click your Taskbar > click the 'Lock the Taskbar' option on the contextual menu (if its checked), now right click an area within the Quick Launch buttons, (try not to right click a button itself) > you will then see a another contextual menu with different options > select 'View' and click 'Large' icons, there you have a 'Dock' like Taskbar.

Its definitely a given that there will be months of speculation to come on Windows 7's UI and Microsoft over time will continue to change and apply different looks and feels as the development of the operating system progresses. If you went through the Longhorn up's and down's you should definitely remember all the different UI's the OS tried out, Plex, Slate, build 5048 released at WinHEC 2005 used a different UI before beta 1 which was different also and changed again to the now familar look first introduced in Windows Vista build 5270.

Do you know Microsoft Touchlight of 2006?

@dev:"At the June 2004 WWDC, Jobs blew away the MSFT engineers in attendance by demonstrating lightning fast Spotlight searches on Tiger (OSX 10.4)."

"Blew away"? I call hyperbole, your "27 years" aside.

Again, Apple was not the innovator, not even first to deliver here too. This "who-demoed-first" crap is pathetic. Google had desktop search available on Windows pretty much done at around that time too. In fact, other (usually smaller and less PR-heavy) companies had system-wide search apps on Windows well before Apple, MS and Google then.

My point is not some sort of typical "MS is great and Apple sucks" counterpoint. My disagreement is that even if MS is stumbling heavily lately, Apple is not the paragon of innovation their Marketing dept makes them out to be.

Sure, it makes for fun-but-pointless arguments around the water cooler, but it gets old after a while when you know better.

@alphadog [My point is not some sort of typical "MS is great and Apple sucks" counterpoint. My disagreement is that even if MS is stumbling heavily lately, Apple is not the paragon of innovation their Marketing dept makes them out to be.]

So what is your beef with Apple? You obviously resent them for something they are doing (or have done) that for some reason just rubs you wrong. Did you have a great idea once but someone beat you to the market? For years Apple has been throwing pebbles at the giant, seems they have been landing a few hits lately in some strategic locations that has the potential to bring the big guy down to his knees.

Apple has found a way to beat MS that their own game...the power of money and marketing. Sweet!

I don't really understand how useful the touch interface will be for your general user. First off you're going to have to buy an expensive new screen for this. New computers are a given expense, but we tend to use monitors for years before retiring them, so I see this as an added expense.

Personally I hate fingerprints on my monitor. The touch interface is going to make a mess of your screen. As Julie said, buy stock in window cleaning products.

Now, imagine spending much of your day reaching up to your screen and doing 2 finger manipulation of data, images, etc. With a standard computer setup this is going to be ergonomic hell.

This sort of interface makes a lot of sense on a tablet computer or a pda/phone type device like the iPhone, but I don't see the benefit for the desktop. I'll predict that this will have the same impact as a voice activated computer. Nice concept but not practical.

@Dev

You're flip-flopping:

Dev: "OSX ripoff...", "OSX-like application menu bar...", "utter lack of creativity..."

alphadog: "Apple has no more a corner on this than Microsoft."

Dev: "but Apple in recent years keeps humiliating MSFT by being first to implement..."

So what is your argument? Originally it was "MS rips-off Apple", but when it's demonstrated untrue, you quickly switch to "Apple pwns MSFT". Jockying about topics, hoping to land an unrelated "win" doesn't make an argument. It's just annoying.

@Jer

[You obviously resent them for something they are doing (or have done) that for some reason just rubs you wrong]

Bad logic, bro. "My disagreement is that even if MS is stumbling heavily lately, Apple is not the paragon of innovation their Marketing dept makes them out to be." does NOT equal "You obviously resent them for something they are doing..." Some people just get sick of bandwagon-hopping, banner waving individuals who prefer propaganda and drama to facts and logic. "bring the big guy down to his knees"? Come one! Seriously! If that, in fact, DID happen, if Apple brought Microsoft to it's knees, how long would it be before Apple was the "big bad guy" and Microsoft was the "poor lil guy"? A month? Two? It's like watching a bucket of crabs: none of them make it out because the crabs at the bottom cant stand the fact one of them worked their way near the top. Obviously it did something wrong and needs to be brought to its knees... pathetic.

@alphadog
""Blew away"? I call hyperbole, your "27 years" aside."

re: "27 years" -- I did dBaseII programming on CP/M. Did you?

Now let's look at why I used the term "blew away".

From: Vic Gundotra

Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:49 PM

To: Quentin Clark

Cc: Lenn Pryor

Subject: RE: tiger

I'm assuming you saw the speech

Lenn is running the bits already

He says he is blown away by the WinFS clone functionality - it's already working

I will install bits before I send the DVDs to you

I'm amazed you guys didn't send someone to the conference J

and this:

From: Quentin Clark

Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:47 PM

To: Vic Gundotra

cc: Lenn Pryor

Subject: RE: tiger

Yes.

We must have this. We must do analysis. I will return them, unharmed ;)

So who are these people that were blown away by the lightning-fast Spotlight demo? Well, in June of 2004 they held these positions at Microsoft:

Vic Gundotra - General Manager, Platform Evangelism

Lenn Pryor - Director, Platform Evangelism (Conceived the Channel 9 website)

Quentin Clark - Director Of Program Management for WinFS

At that point, all MS had managed to deploy was a crude indexer, and even had to turn that off in XP by default, as it was too slow and chatty. Despite your claims, at the time there was nothing like Spotlight available to end-users--seamlessly integrated into the OS, narrow-as-you-type, automagically incorporating metadata and even OCRing text inside PDF's.

Look, for years I was a huge MSFT cheerleader. I've been an MCSE for 10 years. I have an alphabet soup of industry certs. I've deployed and managed MSFT enterprise solutions on three continents. But I no longer recommend Windows machines to most home clients anymore. The hassle-free end-user experience of OS X is simply startling compared to that of XP/Vista. It's a stunning change--my primary mobile support PC is now a Mac. My domain management tools now run inside XP and Vista Fusion VM's on my MacBook. As I commented before on another thread, if MSFT has lost me, they really are in trouble.

@Jer: "So what is your beef with Apple?"

None, beyond their over-the-top marketing. Because of that, I have to live with people deluded into thinking Apple innovated and delivered everything first. (Note that there is just as much delusion on the other side of the Microsoft-Apple divide.)

"Did you have a great idea once but someone beat you to the market?"

No. Just a simple penchant for the truth rather than chest-thumping hyperbole.

"they have been landing a few hits lately in some strategic locations that has the potential to bring the big guy down to his knees."

Not really. It would take a lot more than being able to swing images around on a phone with my dirty finger, or dock icons on a bar, to bring down MS. Translucent windows is hardly a "strategic location".

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see them taken down a notch or two, or ten, but it ain't going to be through UI tricks, else Apple would have replaced MS a looooong time ago. Real strategic points would be dropping market share on Silverlight, Sharepoint, Exchange...

Trainwreck sums me up well. It's the deluded boosterism that bugs me.

And, for what end? So that Apple fanboys and fangirls can finally have their turn at looking down at Microsofties? It's very eye-for-an-eye...

@dev: "I did dBaseII programming on CP/M. Did you?"

I called hyperbole on the "blew away", not your 27 years comment. Anyways, I've met plenty of "PDP switch-flippers" that didn't know their backsides from a modern-day system. Am I to cower before your awesome CP/M skills? Seriously. Don't throw crap like that around just to try to stop a debate. It's a silly tactic.

And, whether one MS guy was blown away or not, or being dramatic in an email or not, still doesn't mean Apple is an innovator.

Let's recap: Joe Wilcox write a feisty blog piece that Seven "inherits" from Apple. Comments are spawned that MS cannot innovate and have no creativity. The proof is in Wilcox piece.

I raise the fact that neither Apple nor MS have had much to do with these various "innovations". You then pull up an email that demonstrates that MS was impressed with Apple's deployment of an OS-integrated WinFS clone, something irrelevant to my point. I try to reinforce my point that because MS cannot deliver does not make Apple a paragon of innovation; many of those concepts existed elsewhere before Apple and MS. And you repeat the canned emails.

Okay, but my point still stands. Heck, MS could probably have bought out one of many true innovators and put them to good use.

Maybe the problem is that MS has too many of those switch-flipping CP/M programmers at the top and that is why MS was never able to get WinFS off the ground?

- alphadog

@dev

Put down the crack pipe. There is no Mac OS X style app menu bar anywhere in that demo.

I don't know who's creativity should be most alarming, MS's or your's.

@Joe etc.

It's nice to know that any taskbar over y pixels in height can now be considered a "Mac OS X Dock Ripoff"

What sad gray world you must all live in, unable to perceive the differences in such remotely similar objects.

I've been using my finger on my Mobile 5 cell phone for almost 2 years.

Office 2008 does a much better job of incorporating new features found in v2007 without radically changing the UI.

And how on earth is this a virtue?

The UI of Office 2008 is very much like it has been the last 10 years. Inconsistent, unintuitive, slow, un-mac-like and just too complex to be discoverable. The UI of Office 2008 is just utter crap. UIs are not like wines, just one of them age well.

I admit I have not tried Office 2007 but given almost anything is better than Office 2008 I am having hard time believing it can be worse. If it is faster and has less modal windows, it is good enough for me.

Excuse me if I don't get all excited about a bunch of marketing hype. Most non-geeky users already have a tough time getting any real work done on any platform and this kind of rampant featuritis really doesn't help the situation.

The touch screen is probably great for iphones, metorologists, news anchors, and graphic artists. I think many of us would be better served by a good voice recognition system and reusable paper.

What's the point of the water demo? Now if it washed the fingerprints and smudges off the screen, that'd be cool.

As many of us have expected for years, Microsoft is beginning to fall into irrelevancy.

XP was OK, after about two service packs. It was fairly stable and usable, but it still looked like a child's toy envisioned by circa-2000 AOL. The way I used it was as a shell for opensource apps, running natively and on my linux boxes over Cygwin/X exports.

With Vista, it's a little bit harder to do that. The OS is more intrusive and more unwieldy. What rocket scientist thought up the "improvements" to Explorer? Pre-SP1, it was next to unusable on a 4-gig Intel dualcore. the only reason I continue to use Microsoft at all is because of photoshop support. If pshop comes to Ubuntu, I'm gone for oood, and most of my computer time (90%) is now spent on Ubuntu, which runs far, far better and faster than patched Vista, on inferior hardware.

Mac? Don't make me laugh. Maybe if I was a coffee-shop hipster kid in a too-tight black turtleneck. They're going for the status angle, the conspicuous consumption angle. Me, I'll stick with whitebox hardware and I'll get twice the processing power or better for the same price.

OSX feels condescending and limited. They're flirting with Vista-like bloat there, and while it seems to be working thus far, I'm not spending 4 grand on a machine to run it on.

But what really drives me away is the marketing. PC is an aging businessman and Mac is an emo kid who looks like he hasn't showered in days? I'll take the third option, please, and I'll put the difference in the bank.

Oh, and that multitouch bullshit? Don't make me laugh. That's going to be their undoing. It looks like it was made by Fisher Price. More condescension and scorn of the user.

I'm sure a bunch of marketing fluff of a bunch of hipsters of undefinable race, grinning like they just smoked cocaine, is going to make Microsoft look cool to the younger generation.

good luck with that, Omelet Ballmer. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...

a good read !

a good read !

Mac OSX is totally useless as far as real world use, I also use real world hardware and do not like being limited by artsy-fartsy applications such as are available on the OSX platform.
I am a UX user as well as a Windows Platform user...this is being posted from a Windows(R)7 machine that dual boots with FreeBSD and the machine is an Old Dell Insiron 8000, $250.00 at a used computer shop, not the $2500.00 price tag for another Intel based (PC) Mac.
The Debate is amusing, Windows always Wins!